Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

[Don W.]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

The $215.00 is the best part of this whole deal. I went to hydro-boost for the additional holding power at the line in racing. Would not have bothered otherwise. With the cam I have I only pull 10" vac at idle in gear, about 11-12 in neutral. Not a lot and I didn't want to fool with the revving the motor thing every time I pulled up to the line.

Probably a 1000 sites out there about brakes but here is one that explains things well and it's hard to argue with the SAE:

http://www.sae.org/events/bce/tutorial-limberg.pdf

And for the techie/math folks try this:

http://www.engineeringinspiration.co.uk/brakecalcs.html

 

[rentedmule]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

If I install 1998 Blazer 2WD spindles & assembly my fear is that the ZQ8 wheels will stick out past the Bravada cladding.

On a 2wd truck, swapping to 2wd blazer spindles won't affect track width. I run very tight-fitting 275's on the front of my truck and didn't run into any clearance issues after the blazer spindle/C5 brake swap.

 

[DaveP]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

Update:

Ok. My White/Gry has a 2nd gen rear disc brake axle. I also took the opportunity to install a set of Davey-Z offset-pin lowering blocks. The entire axle install deal took an afternoon working by myself. I haven't installed the 2nd gen fronts yet; may start on that over the weekend, but I need the Ty for two places I'm going that have underground parking. The Super Duty won't fit, so I can't have the Ty down for the next two days.

My first impressions are good. Higher pedal, and seems a little better braking, but I'm not sure. I already have the 2nd gen master cyl installed from a few months ago. Jason made me an adapter, and that came out well.

I have a plan for the park brake cables, and I may do that tomorrow so it's done. The Ty outer jackets are perhaps 1" longer than they need to be for the disc parking brake. So I'm going to put the 2nd gen inner cables (which are 3' longer than 1st gen) in the Ty's outer jackets and use wire-rope clamps to terminate the inner cable at the stock Ty equalizer. Should take all of 15 minutes to do, and should work well. With parts I already have; no waiting (or paying for) custom cables.

I'm pleased. The cost is reasonable. All OEM parts. And the brakes fit inside stock wheels, including the spare, which was one of the criteria for the swap. DesertSy never had a spare. Not cool for a guy that covers a lot of highway miles.

Stay tuned for a report after the front update.

 

[wildphil]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

Sounds like you have what you want on the braking system all figured out. I am going to check out the Davey-Z offset-pin lowering blocks.

I went and read Paul-Z's post. Those look nice.

 

[DaveP]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

Thanks for the interest, Phil. AFAIK, the Davey-Z blocks aren't available any longer because Davey-Z retired, and no longer has ready access to the machine shop at work... Only a few sets were made, and I was lucky to be on the A-list to get a set. I actually asked Paul if it was OK to put them on the Ty, as they were intended for the Sy.

I've now driven the rear brakes almost 200 miles since the install on Friday. Pedal is higher, and there is better initial "grab" with less pedal effort. I like them. An annoying bearing whine which I think was the pinion bearing is gone too. Bonus.

I did the park brake cables with the Ty outer conduits, and the 2nd gen inner cables. The LH conduit on my car was a 4-door cable which is 4" longer than a 2-door cable. Factory f uck-up, or they were out of 2-door cables the day mine was built. I found the best routing was to go inboard of the frame, and not through the oval hole like the stock routing does. I used wire rope clams on the cables at the stock equalizer. They slipped 3 times until I stripped the plastic coating off the cable, and then they held. So this is a viable option if one does this swap; get the 2nd gen park brake cables, 4 wire rope clamps, and you'll be done an hour later. No waiting for custom cables.

I hope to do the fronts this week and get it aligned. The lowering induced negative camber, and now it pulls as well. I have new tires, don't want to tear them up.

Laterz.

 

[wildphil]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

Sorry to hear about the bearing whine. But as you know things like that happen when you are swapping out parts. Nothing you can't fix.

You found a good, cheap viable option for the rear brakes. And you know the fronts will work out great. Your findings should help out a lot of folks that want to upgrade without the big expense and without the trouble of having to do mods needed for the Camaro or larger braking systems.

I am having trouble with my black Ty. It has basically no give when I hit a bump. I will probably try shorter lowering blocks.

I would prefer the JSM suspension kit. As you know Jeff knows his stuff. But I can't afford the system. So I am thinking changing to 1" or 2" blocks will at least improve my ride a little.

But that is not the most important thing I need to work on with that truck at this time.

But I am glad your idea about the brake swap worked out so well. Good work like always.

 

[DaveP]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

Well, they're done. My wht/gry has a 2nd Gen brake system. Fronts, rears, and master cylinder. I gutted a stock combo valve, welded the little holes closed, sealed the threads on the plugs with red loc-tite and waited 48 hours before putting brake fluid in it. So far no leaks. I'm convinced that the rear pads drag if one does NOT modify the combo valve. I can tell that the rears are no longer dragging after the combo valve mod. I'm pretty sure this is why DesertSy ate rear pads. They were always applied at 5psi.

After much reflection, I also removed the BPMV. Ya'll call it "ABS Delete". I like the 4-sensor 91 and 92 system, but have almost wrecked in a 93 3-sensor system 3 times when the ABS decided it could do a better job than I was doing and REDUCED my braking effectiveness. I didn't research it very much, but I'm not aware of an easy way to fit rear wheel sensors on the 2nd gen Blazer axle, nor do I have a 91-92 module, so I just took the ABS out. My Ty is relatively un-dorked with, but I feel if the mod prevents me from wrecking it from an un-anticipated braking event, it is worth the trade-off. The 93 system sucks.

I didn't do any testing with the old system, so I can't make empirical evaluations on "improvement". It feels like I'm pushing less on the pedal for the same braking. Because of AWD it is difficult to lock any one wheel because they are mechanically linked together, so I can't really evaluate front/rear balance. Nor have I driven it hard yet at the limit of braking. So I have no idea if this was an "improvement" or not. It cost me a little under $700 including some bearings for the rear axle, fluid, new hoses, etc. Not too bad, all OEM parts, nothing special or custom. At the least, I'm now in the 21st Century with 4-Wheel disc brakes. "Improvement" or not.

Thanks for reading.

 

[It's just a six]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

Congrats on the install.:tup:

Was wondering how well the rear brakes hold when boost launching?

 

[2500avalanche]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

Dave,
Great work. Curious, you say you used a 2nd gen rear. Did you use the entire rear, or just the axle?

Update:

Ok. My White/Gry has a 2nd gen rear disc brake axle. I also took the opportunity to install a set of Davey-Z offset-pin lowering blocks. The entire axle install deal took an afternoon working by myself. I haven't installed the 2nd gen fronts yet; may start on that over the weekend, but I need the Ty for two places I'm going that have underground parking. The Super Duty won't fit, so I can't have the Ty down for the next two days.

My first impressions are good. Higher pedal, and seems a little better braking, but I'm not sure. I already have the 2nd gen master cyl installed from a few months ago. Jason made me an adapter, and that came out well.

I have a plan for the park brake cables, and I may do that tomorrow so it's done. The Ty outer jackets are perhaps 1" longer than they need to be for the disc parking brake. So I'm going to put the 2nd gen inner cables (which are 3' longer than 1st gen) in the Ty's outer jackets and use wire-rope clamps to terminate the inner cable at the stock Ty equalizer. Should take all of 15 minutes to do, and should work well. With parts I already have; no waiting (or paying for) custom cables.

I'm pleased. The cost is reasonable. All OEM parts. And the brakes fit inside stock wheels, including the spare, which was one of the criteria for the swap. DesertSy never had a spare. Not cool for a guy that covers a lot of highway miles.

Stay tuned for a report after the front update.

 

[Don W.]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

Nice Dave. You just can't keep from wrenching on these things.:rotf::rotf:

 

[wildphil]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

Congratulations on completing the task. I like the way you figured out how to make it all work on stock parts.

 

[DaveP]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

Dave,
Great work. Curious, you say you used a 2nd gen rear. Did you use the entire rear, or just the axle?

The entire rear axle assembly, rotor to rotor. The axle-shafts are unique to the disc-brake assembly (3/16" shorter), and at first I thought the diff housing was the same, but the backing plate flanges are welded about 1" further inboard than they are on the drum-brake axle assembly. The jpunce stops on the 2nd gen assembly are big round things, I cout them off parallel with the spring perch. Made it look better. The 1st gen bump stops on the frame are kind of in the way for access to the caliper bleeders with the wheels on. Bleeding the rears was easy with the wheels off, rather fussy with them on. Overall, it was a worthwhile deal. My old axle had a bearing noise, so I "fixed" that too with the complete axle change-out.

Was wondering how well the rear brakes hold when boost launching?

I have no idea. I haven't tried it, and probably won't either. I hate breaking stuff. At well over 100K it still has its stock front prop shaft because this truck has been treated gently for the 20 years its been under my care. It doesn't ask for much, so I don't mistreat it.

Nice Dave. You just can't keep from wrenching on these things.:rotf::rotf:

Thanks, Don. Some people have wives, or kids, or just a life in general. I don't, so I work on my cars. Keeps me busy and broke.

Congratulations on completing the task. I like the way you figured out how to make it all work on stock parts.

Thanks, Phil. I'm not an engineer. I can't figure this stuff out on my own. So I use combos that were developed and validated for production vehicles, then used on 100's of thousands of units in production. Hard to go wrong if you use the entire package.

 

[Adam#0213]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

So Dave when can you do my truck?

 

[Static]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

I gutted the rear portion only on my combo valve. Did you do both front and rear? Also noticed you have PMs off. Would like to get an email for you. Tried dropping you a line a week or so ago.

 

[DaveP]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

I gutted the rear portion only on my combo valve. Did you do both front and rear?

Yes. I gutted both ends. I don't feel I need either. If I ever feel I need proportioning, I can add one easily enough. With AWD, I don't think I'll ever detect undesirable front/rear unbalance. I also swapped ends on both the master and combo valve. On 1st gen the 1/4" line is the rear chamber on the master, combo valve and for the rear brakes. On the 2nd gen master it is the front chamber on the master. I plumbed the front chamber to the front of the combo valve, then to the rear brakes. So I HAD to gut both ends.

On the 2000-up 2nd gen the front brake lines were increased to 1/4" from the earlier 3/16". I retained the 3/16" tubing for the fronts, but if I ever have the opportunity to have the engine out or the core support off, I may consider up-sizing the front lines and hoses. Wouldn't be hard to do, but I'm not sure what benefit there would be, nor why the 2000-up got bigger lines over the 98-99, so I'll probably never worry about it. Probably has something to do with improving ABS response times. Not applicable.

I also noticed you have PMs off. Would like to get an email for you. Tried dropping you a line a week or so ago.

Yes. There are a couple of ass-hats that think it's hilarious to waste people's time by responding to posts with "PM DaveP. He has those parts". Or "PM DaveP, he knows everything". Got tired of dealing with it. Because both of these clowns are on my Ignore list, it took awhile to figure out the source of all the trash. Plus I don't come on here like I used to. Perhaps a thread or two a month now. I've pulled the throttle way back. I just turned the PM's off so peeps don't wonder why I don't respond.

Take care.

 

[Z SKI]

Re: Stock Brakes Suck. My Idea for an Inexpensive Upgrade.

Good shit Dave!! Cant wait to check it out in person!!