WyoSyclone
Active member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
Did you get a fuel pressure gauge on it to test pressure while driving?
Did you get a fuel pressure gauge on it to test pressure while driving?
Wicked Rich Idle
- Thread starter coupecustom
- Start date
Don W.
Stab it and steer it
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
I'd suggest you contact Eric right away regardless. It can sometimes take him awhile to get back. Might be best to use his forum. The fuel pressure bouncing around needs to be fixed. No clue on the mismatch between the WB gauge and the Scanmaster. Hopefully Eric can help there. You can get an OE o2 sensor from Rock Auto for about $30.00. Might be worth it as a test but I think your very next fix has to be that fuel pressure. What does it do with engine off? If it's smooth there and wacky when running then you might have a some bad injs. Are they new/rebuilt? Try this off-the-wall test. Run the pump manually for, say, 30 sec. Then start the motor. Does it start right away or does it act flooded?
I'd suggest you contact Eric right away regardless. It can sometimes take him awhile to get back. Might be best to use his forum. The fuel pressure bouncing around needs to be fixed. No clue on the mismatch between the WB gauge and the Scanmaster. Hopefully Eric can help there. You can get an OE o2 sensor from Rock Auto for about $30.00. Might be worth it as a test but I think your very next fix has to be that fuel pressure. What does it do with engine off? If it's smooth there and wacky when running then you might have a some bad injs. Are they new/rebuilt? Try this off-the-wall test. Run the pump manually for, say, 30 sec. Then start the motor. Does it start right away or does it act flooded?
Eric Sy GN
Donating Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
Fuel pressure jumping is not uncommon with big injectors and batch fire injection. Also depends on the gauge, as some gauges will dampen the pulses. The fluid in the gauge can sometimes "thin out" when hot.
If the wideband and scanmaster match at first, then don't match when hot, I would go through your wideband wiring to the ECM. Maybe change the ground location. I like to ground right to the ECM case.
Fuel pressure jumping is not uncommon with big injectors and batch fire injection. Also depends on the gauge, as some gauges will dampen the pulses. The fluid in the gauge can sometimes "thin out" when hot.
If the wideband and scanmaster match at first, then don't match when hot, I would go through your wideband wiring to the ECM. Maybe change the ground location. I like to ground right to the ECM case.
coupecustom
Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
The wideband is currently grounded under the dash. I would think that the display would have a problem if the ground to the innovate was bad. Regardless I can extend that ground to the ECU if you think thats best. Is there an open ground plug that I could use instead of the case? Kinda hate to have a wire bolted down to the outside of the case.
The gauge I have cannot stay on while driving.
The injectors are brand new 80lb...so as Eric mentioned kinda big. I was hoping it would bounce much less, but we'll see if the hotwire addresses some of that. Certainly can't hurt.
The wideband is currently grounded under the dash. I would think that the display would have a problem if the ground to the innovate was bad. Regardless I can extend that ground to the ECU if you think thats best. Is there an open ground plug that I could use instead of the case? Kinda hate to have a wire bolted down to the outside of the case.
The gauge I have cannot stay on while driving.
The injectors are brand new 80lb...so as Eric mentioned kinda big. I was hoping it would bounce much less, but we'll see if the hotwire addresses some of that. Certainly can't hurt.
Eric Sy GN
Donating Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
Yes, pin B9 is the recommended place to ground the wideband (or the case).
Yes, pin B9 is the recommended place to ground the wideband (or the case).
coupecustom
Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
Traced my wiring job today. Ground for the wideband was already plugged into the pin B9 on the computer. I thought it was under the dash, but I was wrong. I did it that way from the beginning. So, any other ideas as to why the computer is not picking up the correct AFR?
When the computer stops reading wideband correctly, the truck definitely runs lean.
Traced my wiring job today. Ground for the wideband was already plugged into the pin B9 on the computer. I thought it was under the dash, but I was wrong. I did it that way from the beginning. So, any other ideas as to why the computer is not picking up the correct AFR?
When the computer stops reading wideband correctly, the truck definitely runs lean.
IGottaSy
Active member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
This..
"The wideband that I have is an Innovate SCG-1. Its a boost controller and wideband in one. It does have a setting for fuel type. Default is gasoline and I have not changed it. I don't have a NB sensor in, so it is simulated from the wideband and dip switch 4 is on."
If understand what I'm reading, the ECM is receiving two sets of information. One is from the WB O2 and the other is the chip program when dips witch 4 is on. Is this correct?
From the innovative site...
"This same digital output can be used to record air/fuel ratio, solenoid duty cycle, engine speed and manifold pressure with our free LogWorks PC software to help you dial in a perfect boost curve."
Is the setting correct for the ECM to use that stream of information accurately?
This..
"The wideband that I have is an Innovate SCG-1. Its a boost controller and wideband in one. It does have a setting for fuel type. Default is gasoline and I have not changed it. I don't have a NB sensor in, so it is simulated from the wideband and dip switch 4 is on."
If understand what I'm reading, the ECM is receiving two sets of information. One is from the WB O2 and the other is the chip program when dips witch 4 is on. Is this correct?
From the innovative site...
"This same digital output can be used to record air/fuel ratio, solenoid duty cycle, engine speed and manifold pressure with our free LogWorks PC software to help you dial in a perfect boost curve."
Is the setting correct for the ECM to use that stream of information accurately?
coupecustom
Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
The ECU only receives one set of information for AFR. It is from the wide band; yellow wire. That wire is voltage signal that comes from the innovate gauge. 0 - 5 v has a reading between 7.35 a/f - 22.39 a/f. Dip switch 4 lets the chip know that I do not have a narrow band 02 sensor and to simulate that based off the wide band. Basically that makes the chip compute what the a/f is based on the voltage it receives.
I put a t-tap on the wire so that I could see what the voltage was when the issue occurred. I went for a 5 minute drive and of course it didn't happen, truck ran great. Ugh, the inconsistency is frustrating.
I'll take it out again later this evening and we'll see what happens. I'll leave the volt meter connected and read the voltage if the issue happens again so I can see if the innovate is giving the correct voltage or if the computer is not calculating a/f correctly. We'll see.
The ECU only receives one set of information for AFR. It is from the wide band; yellow wire. That wire is voltage signal that comes from the innovate gauge. 0 - 5 v has a reading between 7.35 a/f - 22.39 a/f. Dip switch 4 lets the chip know that I do not have a narrow band 02 sensor and to simulate that based off the wide band. Basically that makes the chip compute what the a/f is based on the voltage it receives.
I put a t-tap on the wire so that I could see what the voltage was when the issue occurred. I went for a 5 minute drive and of course it didn't happen, truck ran great. Ugh, the inconsistency is frustrating.
I'll take it out again later this evening and we'll see what happens. I'll leave the volt meter connected and read the voltage if the issue happens again so I can see if the innovate is giving the correct voltage or if the computer is not calculating a/f correctly. We'll see.
IGottaSy
Active member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
Sounds like you are getting close! Excuse my insistence about the NB signal coming from the WB yellow wire. Shouldn't this be the signal to let ECM know actual AFR? As mentioned before, NB is already simulated within the chip as per programming so no need for an emulated NB signal. Glad you are making progress!
Sounds like you are getting close! Excuse my insistence about the NB signal coming from the WB yellow wire. Shouldn't this be the signal to let ECM know actual AFR? As mentioned before, NB is already simulated within the chip as per programming so no need for an emulated NB signal. Glad you are making progress!
Don W.
Stab it and steer it
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
As I understand the yellow wire is a wide band sig only. 0v -5v. The ECM takes that info and does two things. Emulates narrow bad 0.1v to 1.0v which requires sw 4 on if no NB is installed. It also allows for data logging of WB readings regardless of sw4 setting. I have both sensors wired into my ECM. I run with sw4 on as advised by Eric. It's been awhile but as I recall it made no difference in the way the truck ran with sw4 on or off.
Eric says the chip is working. My question is what is the o2 mv reading? If graphed it "should" move back and forth between low (30's in my case) to upper 900s. (940 in my case) Also what are the o2 xcounts or cross counts? This should, as I understand, remain pretty close to 128.
As I understand the yellow wire is a wide band sig only. 0v -5v. The ECM takes that info and does two things. Emulates narrow bad 0.1v to 1.0v which requires sw 4 on if no NB is installed. It also allows for data logging of WB readings regardless of sw4 setting. I have both sensors wired into my ECM. I run with sw4 on as advised by Eric. It's been awhile but as I recall it made no difference in the way the truck ran with sw4 on or off.
Eric says the chip is working. My question is what is the o2 mv reading? If graphed it "should" move back and forth between low (30's in my case) to upper 900s. (940 in my case) Also what are the o2 xcounts or cross counts? This should, as I understand, remain pretty close to 128.
coupecustom
Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
Yesterday evening I took the truck out for another drive to see if I could replicate the AFR discrepancy issue with my volt meter hooked up. Luckily I was able to.
Matched voltage between wide band and scan master was about: 2.63 Volts for an AFR of about 14.6 (very difficult to tell exactly as the a/f is consistently moving.
Unmatched (WB 16.something) voltage out of the analog out was around 2.5 volts.
That basically means the innovate is delivering the wrong analog voltage to the computer when the issue is occurring, hence the discrepancy. I'm going to order a com to usb cable so that I can connect to the SCG-1 and check firmware. If firmware is off I'll update. If not I'll take a look at the analog customization page and see if it changes when the issue is occurring. From there I can contact Innovate support and hopefully get them to help.
Yesterday evening I took the truck out for another drive to see if I could replicate the AFR discrepancy issue with my volt meter hooked up. Luckily I was able to.
Matched voltage between wide band and scan master was about: 2.63 Volts for an AFR of about 14.6 (very difficult to tell exactly as the a/f is consistently moving.
Unmatched (WB 16.something) voltage out of the analog out was around 2.5 volts.
That basically means the innovate is delivering the wrong analog voltage to the computer when the issue is occurring, hence the discrepancy. I'm going to order a com to usb cable so that I can connect to the SCG-1 and check firmware. If firmware is off I'll update. If not I'll take a look at the analog customization page and see if it changes when the issue is occurring. From there I can contact Innovate support and hopefully get them to help.
coupecustom
Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
Took the truck for another run and did not experience the A/F issue described in the above post this time. That was good as I was able to replicate the "wicked rich idle" issue. Basically I was able to see an AFR of 14.5ish and BLM was clear up to 160 (maxed) and truck was spitting gas out the tail pipe. I believe this is due to the fuel pump. I'm thinking this is a pressure issue; where not enough pressure is delivered but the flow is there. I wish I could have had my gauge hooked up at the time, but I didn't. So as the computer is attempting to add fuel to keep the a/f on target, more flow of fuel is getting in than can be burned ending up in raw gas. In other words its like your pouring gas in the cylinders instead of spraying.
I'm working out what I need to do my own hotwire kit. I have plenty of 8 gauge (which seems huge), but since I have it....I'll get a fuse and run that from the power block back to a relay I'll put in and then connect that to the weather pack. Use the current power wire as the trigger.
This has been good experience and I feel like the issues are narrowing, which is great...but what a long road.
Took the truck for another run and did not experience the A/F issue described in the above post this time. That was good as I was able to replicate the "wicked rich idle" issue. Basically I was able to see an AFR of 14.5ish and BLM was clear up to 160 (maxed) and truck was spitting gas out the tail pipe. I believe this is due to the fuel pump. I'm thinking this is a pressure issue; where not enough pressure is delivered but the flow is there. I wish I could have had my gauge hooked up at the time, but I didn't. So as the computer is attempting to add fuel to keep the a/f on target, more flow of fuel is getting in than can be burned ending up in raw gas. In other words its like your pouring gas in the cylinders instead of spraying.
I'm working out what I need to do my own hotwire kit. I have plenty of 8 gauge (which seems huge), but since I have it....I'll get a fuse and run that from the power block back to a relay I'll put in and then connect that to the weather pack. Use the current power wire as the trigger.
This has been good experience and I feel like the issues are narrowing, which is great...but what a long road.
Don W.
Stab it and steer it
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
First off pressure and volume don't work in reverse. For a given "restriction" (IE the injectors in combination with the FPR) if pressure drops, flow drops. If the pump isn't able to supply sufficient pressure at full throttle (injectors at or near max, FPR somewhere near closed) then pressure would drop causing a lean condition. This would be true even at part throttle. However if the pump is not even providing sufficient pressure at part throttle you have trouble even driving the truck.
If you're gonna go to the trouble of rewiring the pump just get one of these:
Fuel Pump Wiring Kit for Syclone (Hotwire)
With all due respect to Eric, your wacky fuel pressure is, IMHO, an issue. Might be the pump or might not. You might want to consider a way to read FB while driving.
First off pressure and volume don't work in reverse. For a given "restriction" (IE the injectors in combination with the FPR) if pressure drops, flow drops. If the pump isn't able to supply sufficient pressure at full throttle (injectors at or near max, FPR somewhere near closed) then pressure would drop causing a lean condition. This would be true even at part throttle. However if the pump is not even providing sufficient pressure at part throttle you have trouble even driving the truck.
If you're gonna go to the trouble of rewiring the pump just get one of these:
Fuel Pump Wiring Kit for Syclone (Hotwire)
With all due respect to Eric, your wacky fuel pressure is, IMHO, an issue. Might be the pump or might not. You might want to consider a way to read FB while driving.
dgoodhue
BuSTeD 4.3
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
If your BLM is 160 and the ECM is in closed loop, it means your ECM is adding 25% more fuel and your ECM thinks your truck is running lean. This compensation is coming from your O2 sensor input. Does you ECM BLM go down towards 128 after idling for a while. My thought process is that a lean spot in the fuel table (or a fuel pump going out) cause be causing the high BLM during driving conditions which is causing the rich idle. if the BLM at idle is staying 160 then that isn't the issue.
Eye watering rich is usually a lot more rich AFR than 14.5:1 if the sensor is reading properly. My truck idles at 13.8 to 14.0 and it isn't eye water rich. I wonder if your WBO2 is going bad. I would temporarily put the narrow band WBo2 back in to see if work properly with that at idle.
If your BLM is 160 and the ECM is in closed loop, it means your ECM is adding 25% more fuel and your ECM thinks your truck is running lean. This compensation is coming from your O2 sensor input. Does you ECM BLM go down towards 128 after idling for a while. My thought process is that a lean spot in the fuel table (or a fuel pump going out) cause be causing the high BLM during driving conditions which is causing the rich idle. if the BLM at idle is staying 160 then that isn't the issue.
Eye watering rich is usually a lot more rich AFR than 14.5:1 if the sensor is reading properly. My truck idles at 13.8 to 14.0 and it isn't eye water rich. I wonder if your WBO2 is going bad. I would temporarily put the narrow band WBo2 back in to see if work properly with that at idle.
Don W.
Stab it and steer it
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
Dave, I asked about installing a NB and he said he didn't have one and didn't seem to want to get one. I agree with you that that would be a relatively simple test. His WB -seems- to be giving bad info to the ECM as I follow this. FYI my truck idles around 14.3 and doesn't smell bad at all. I'm fairly sure that WB has upgradeable firmware. That would be worth it as well. Sudden thought, I wonder if the WB is getting full system voltage? If not would that affect the WB output to the ECM?
Dave, I asked about installing a NB and he said he didn't have one and didn't seem to want to get one. I agree with you that that would be a relatively simple test. His WB -seems- to be giving bad info to the ECM as I follow this. FYI my truck idles around 14.3 and doesn't smell bad at all. I'm fairly sure that WB has upgradeable firmware. That would be worth it as well. Sudden thought, I wonder if the WB is getting full system voltage? If not would that affect the WB output to the ECM?
coupecustom
Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
I need simplify and narrow this problem.
I spoke with innovate today and the issue I described has never been reported and the tech seemed to be in a bit of disbelief...wanted me to narrow the issue further to the wideband. He did suggest that I open the logworks program and set the voltage to a specific setting so that we could find out how the ecu reads it. He had some other suggestions too, but in the end really doesn't believe my main issue is the Wideband or the O2 sensor.
With the above, I think it may be best to take the wideband out of play and resolve any issue in open loop first. That way I don't concern myself with "how" or "what" the ECU is getting from the wideband. If I simply trust that Eric made a great tune for my truck (and I assume he did) then lets see if I can get it to continue to run in open loop and not stall and see how close I can get it to normal.
Don and Dave, will your trucks run pretty close to the same conditions in open loop vs. closed while idling (warmed up)?
When I run mine in open loop the truck runs very ruff...I shut it off before it stalled. I saw the wideband go to 17 before I shut it off. Extremely ruff running.
You guys think I'm on the right track by doing the troubleshooting in this fashion?
I'm going to flip on Switch #2 on the TT chip, pull the power (reset the chip), power back, and start the truck. From there I'll try to take a log and see what all the sensors say before it stalls out or I shut it off.
Thank you for replying and helping me with suggestions, I've been reading every post and thinking everything through.
I need simplify and narrow this problem.
I spoke with innovate today and the issue I described has never been reported and the tech seemed to be in a bit of disbelief...wanted me to narrow the issue further to the wideband. He did suggest that I open the logworks program and set the voltage to a specific setting so that we could find out how the ecu reads it. He had some other suggestions too, but in the end really doesn't believe my main issue is the Wideband or the O2 sensor.
With the above, I think it may be best to take the wideband out of play and resolve any issue in open loop first. That way I don't concern myself with "how" or "what" the ECU is getting from the wideband. If I simply trust that Eric made a great tune for my truck (and I assume he did) then lets see if I can get it to continue to run in open loop and not stall and see how close I can get it to normal.
Don and Dave, will your trucks run pretty close to the same conditions in open loop vs. closed while idling (warmed up)?
When I run mine in open loop the truck runs very ruff...I shut it off before it stalled. I saw the wideband go to 17 before I shut it off. Extremely ruff running.
You guys think I'm on the right track by doing the troubleshooting in this fashion?
I'm going to flip on Switch #2 on the TT chip, pull the power (reset the chip), power back, and start the truck. From there I'll try to take a log and see what all the sensors say before it stalls out or I shut it off.
Thank you for replying and helping me with suggestions, I've been reading every post and thinking everything through.
Don W.
Stab it and steer it
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
I can usually tell about when my truck switches from open to closed loop. It runs better. I've never tried leaving it open loop so can't answer your question. My understanding, someone correct me please, that when in open loop the ECM is only using temp, manifold pressure, TPS, and RPM to control things. I don't like to belabor the point but why don't you just go get a stock 02 and see what happens?
This is way off the wall but... The WB supplies linear voltage from about 1v to 5v. If, this is the crazy part, the ECM is somehow providing a path to ground on that circuit, however minor, wouldn't that pull the WB voltage down causing the measurements you described earlier?
I can usually tell about when my truck switches from open to closed loop. It runs better. I've never tried leaving it open loop so can't answer your question. My understanding, someone correct me please, that when in open loop the ECM is only using temp, manifold pressure, TPS, and RPM to control things. I don't like to belabor the point but why don't you just go get a stock 02 and see what happens?
This is way off the wall but... The WB supplies linear voltage from about 1v to 5v. If, this is the crazy part, the ECM is somehow providing a path to ground on that circuit, however minor, wouldn't that pull the WB voltage down causing the measurements you described earlier?
dgoodhue
BuSTeD 4.3
Re: Wicked Rich Idle
My truck is on code$59 and is running open loop all the time, so the O2 and WBO2 sensors don't adjust my fueling tables, so I am not a good example. If you truck is running 17:1 afr open loop, it makes why it the BLM increasing to richen the mixture.
I am not sure how turbotweak chip works, but are you sure you have it set (scaled) to the right type of brand of WBO2 sensor?
My truck is on code$59 and is running open loop all the time, so the O2 and WBO2 sensors don't adjust my fueling tables, so I am not a good example. If you truck is running 17:1 afr open loop, it makes why it the BLM increasing to richen the mixture.
I am not sure how turbotweak chip works, but are you sure you have it set (scaled) to the right type of brand of WBO2 sensor?