Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

[ed hess]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

This is kinda rare but if there is any feedback on the white that has the viper remote start tach wire soldered to you can get weird codes and see the truck shutting off.

I saw a similar issue like that were it was fine cold. Do a burnout, stage, bring up boost and poof shut down with a code.

wait a few minutes and it would then start right back up. But if you tried to start it up immediately - no go.

My setup was different. In my case, flaming river knob style shut down switch with internal relay to send ground to the same wire in your pic which will shut the truck off. Somehow there was intermittent feed back on that wire even with the flaming river internal relay being open that would screw up the AC signal on that white wire in your pic.

Just for grins try disconnecting the tach wire and report back.

fwiw this made no sense to me, flaming river couldn't explain it, accel dfi tech nor msd tech support couldn't explain it. I found it using my msd box tester by pure luck one day. It was Hot out! I realize you don't have a similar setup but you do have something connected to the same wire I did. Btw I am a viper dealer and have made that same connection many times back when s10's and other gm vehicles like this were common in the shop.

 

[Emmo]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

I just read this....will do. No way to test it I suppose? Figure I'll get a new one (other than MSD) from Napa or AutoZone or Advanced...will keep you posted!

Alright, moving along....got a new (not top of the line ECH-IC29 ) ignition coil from Napa, it's installed. Put a little dielectric grease on and plugs looked okay despite one clip broken. Old MSD coil visually looks okay. I have not yet done anything with the white wire that is spliced on for the remote start...at least not yet. Will try and run this new coil first on a hot day.

Secondly....I also bought a new MAP sensor from Napa (CRP216865). That's installed with a zip good tie and hopefully will hold pressure. The old MAP looked okay and I saw good movement on the datamaster file yesterday. As this new sensor is NAPA generic I'm assuming it's 2 BAR as it doesn't have the plastic engraved codes like the old OEM one I removed and still have. The description online and at the store doesn't confirm 2BAR but I'm hoping I'm okay.

I did not get a good hot enough yesterday to run a datamaster file while HOT outside. And not looking like it'll happen today. Hopefully tomorrow...

Will reply to comments on next post....thanks all!

 

[Emmo]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

Just some ideas....when you stated the code 51 came up was this when the truck started to run like crap or before it did.
Why don't you try this Disconnect battery and wait 15 minutes (When the truck starts running like crap). After 15 minutes reconnect the battery and try it. If it doesn't happen then more a ECM or electrical connector like a temp sensor issue. Of course just my opinion.

Excellent idea ... it is added on the list for the next run when it indeed is hot enough outside. The few times it does run bad the 51 code is constantly triggered. I have not yet attempted to clear it and restart while hot. Thanks VinnieTy will report back,

 

[ed hess]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

When I had my issue it would give a code 66 on my dfi, acell couldnt even tell us what that was. good luck

 

[Emmo]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

I think theres issues with your IC. For an 80 degree day your seeing 160 ish IAT. This seems very high to me. How many miles on the truck? I would inspect the lower exchanger internally, check for kinked hose, do the hard line bypass if you havent already, refill the system and make sure no air is trapped.

Excellent Static - This is good to know .... I knew I had flow and the new pump is pumping ....BUT maybe the old exchanger is clogged up. What I didn't know until now is that 160deg IAT is on the high side...good note. NOTE to others, learn how to use datamaster...I should have sooner

I've recently checked lines and no pinching. Photo of setup I did long ago through right fender, no hard lines. I ended up using hard brass elbows to avoid pinching and there are no leaks. It is though tricky to get the air out so I will try that now and see what happens to the IAT temp just in general. I think I can hear light cavitation with the flow...

Can I check if the old heat exchanger is clogged by hand touching it to see about hot spots versus cold spots? Truck has 93k miles on it and I've changed the coolant frequently since 17k miles. Pump is solid and hot wired.

Will report back on this too and see if I can get IAT down, what would reasonable range be for a 95 deg day?

Thanks Static , Pete

 

[Emmo]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

This is kinda rare but if there is any feedback on the white that has the viper remote start tach wire soldered to you can get weird codes and see the truck shutting off.

I saw a similar issue like that were it was fine cold. Do a burnout, stage, bring up boost and poof shut down with a code.

wait a few minutes and it would then start right back up. But if you tried to start it up immediately - no go.

My setup was different. In my case, flaming river knob style shut down switch with internal relay to send ground to the same wire in your pic which will shut the truck off. Somehow there was intermittent feed back on that wire even with the flaming river internal relay being open that would screw up the AC signal on that white wire in your pic.

Just for grins try disconnecting the tach wire and report back.

fwiw this made no sense to me, flaming river couldn't explain it, accel dfi tech nor msd tech support couldn't explain it. I found it using my msd box tester by pure luck one day. It was Hot out! I realize you don't have a similar setup but you do have something connected to the same wire I did. Btw I am a viper dealer and have made that same connection many times back when s10's and other gm vehicles like this were common in the shop.

Hi Ed, good note...the times I've tried to restart right back up and I've done it many times over the past few years when the truck starts acting up and running bad, the only thing that would help was waiting for it to cool down. It would continue to run bad even with a restart.

I did not ever clear codes before restart though. Pulled ECM B fuse and disconnect battery etc...that I will attempt next time and report back as VinnieTy also mentioned above.

Interesting that you're a Viper dealer....perfect....there is one more small side note to this story....the engine running bad when hot outside has been an issue even before the remote start was ever installed BUT on a side note after the remote start was installed I've had issues just plain old starting sometimes...especially with the remote start FOB and sometimes with the basic key in the ignition cylinder. I've got to cycle the key several times sometimes whether just to start for the day or restart to activate the starter. The purple starter wire is good as when it starts it starts fine. I dont know if it was the Viper system (that worked flawless for about 6 months) or its is the cylinder in the steering column wearing out. I read a horror story here on the forum not long ago about a fellow Sy poster who went over to the "U Pull Parts" store and left his truck in the lot to start a fire due to the ignition key cylinder burning out in the steering column. In my near future I'm hoping to investigate my steering column just in case. Granted this is a separate note to the current long time problem but curious to hear any thoughts...

Alright back to it , will keep all posted as the drama here unfolds, thanks all, Pete

 

[Don W.]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

Here's some reading material on ign sw replacement:

http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=59036&highlight=ignition+switch

I believe our switch is specific to our trucks. Be sure to check that if you buy a new one.

 

[VIPERRACING]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

Get rid off the msd coil,I've had 2 brand new ones that were no good.

what seems to be the problem with msd coils?

 

[Don W.]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

Couple of years ago I, for one, had one bad out of the box. You could even see that it wasn't assembled correctly and it didn't work. Took it back and got another. Earlier this year I was working on some fairly serious (it runs like crap) issues. Removed MSD coil and it "seemed" to help. Turns out the issue was somewhere else but never put MSD back on to test. So maybe it's good just haven't tested it. Also in perusing different posts over the years it seems that the stock coil works well for others. Just my :2cents:

 

[Static]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

Heres the thread of my lower heat exchanger install. Theres pictures of how coked up my 120k mile trucks IC system was. Even with the high ambient temps we have here in AZ ive never seen IATs in the 160s. After a while of driving and the old system got heat soaked i did notice a severe performance decrease.
http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81747

 

[berzerker]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

Reply to berzerker,

"did you change out the fuel pump wiring harness inside the tank ? my guess is the connectors are shot and build resistance as everything in the tank get warm . does the truck have the stock catylitic convertor on it ? this could be the issue also ."

Ahhh.... I did not change out the fuel pump wiring harness!...just cleaned up and replaced pump and filter. There was also little union connector (black with gold bumps) allows fuel line to couple inside the tank. I used what was in the kit from RPM and that little union connector did not go back in. It may be a kind of bellows. Photo below...I left it out and dont think it matters, my problem was there before/after pump changeout. And I did throw it away I remember now, can get a new one if needed. Luckily I took a lot of photos during the Summer 2010 restoration,

Now as for the wires...to be certain. Are these the wires in question, see image below. Would I just swap the connector with new and splice the wires in further upstream? There are no wires inside the tank that I remember, just connectors. All looked visual okay inside the gas tank Summer 2010 when I did the swap.

Now as for the catalytic converter....YES, it is NOT STOCK...it is a HIGH flow converter with 3" inlet and exit...no mufflers either. This current converter was to replace the second converter I've had since new ( first two converters got plugged ). Now current converter has been on the truck maybe 6 years or so. I am lucky to pass emissions every year around October and have to wait until a very cool 60 deg day to go, otherwise I fail. O2 sensor is fairly new at 4 years old. Once 25 years hits the truck wont need emissions :tup:

In the beginning and today with the high flow converter if it is cold outside, around 40 deg, the truck is capable of overboosting and cutting the fuel. I've adjusted the stock wastegate linkage as best as possible to remedy this. Typically it is a minor issue and I never overboost in the summer. In the winter, I'm just careful and really have to hammer the throttle to overboost and cut the fuel.

I've pondered putting the muffler back on to help backflow pressure...but dont know or think this contributes to my summer time problem. Let me know what you think, I'm okay with going back to mufflers (my old age I like quiet trucks now :sleepy: )

Thanks bezerker, curious what you think I'm definitely okay with replacing the wires to the tank and see what happens.

All good stuff guys, thanks a bunch!

yes the harness inside the tank is the one prone to failing over time causing resistance . heat will cause the terminals to lose connectivity and the pump will slow down .

 

[Emmo]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

Sunday update , and what a Sunday it's been :doh:

Installed the new coil and the MAP sensor yesterday. I have not yet confirmed that all the air is out of the intercooler...to be done soon. And I have not yet removed the bed to swap the wires in the fuel tank for the pump connection. And I have not yet removed the tach wire for the remote start.

Here's what happened today. Waited until this afternoon when nice and hot around 90deg here. And DID have same issue but not until after a couple of datamaster runs. Initially the truck was running really well just by feel and the boost was able to build with no fuel cut off and the AC stayed on.

Run 1 - 10 min - http://www.mediafire.com/?79sef14cmd01941

Initially all ran well and the temperatures really rose. No problems driving wise but I'm afraid the IAC temp is too high still .... and I'm not 100% sure if the A/C clutch signal and Intercooler Pump signal make sense in the log? The AC was running fine but the signal didn't match showing off most entire period except an occasional 1 sec run. The radiator temperature really rose as I had to sit idle several times in traffic up to 190 deg but came back down when moving. The radiator, water pump, and fan clutch are all fairly new.

Run 2 - 4 min - http://www.mediafire.com/?oo424x264cpow2a
All ran well here too. Got some speed in and feel like radiator temps stable around mid 180s. No problems with AC cutting out and AC signal does cycle to "1" from "0" just a few times for 2 seconds. Keep in mind AC works really well in the truck when it works so maybe this is normal?

Run 3 - 2 min - http://www.mediafire.com/?za81ba8j6pvrydb
I decide to let the truck sit a little while in the sun while doing a side chore. It was around 2pm and up to about 92deg. I attempted to start after getting the datamaster laptop going and the truck starts acting up...I immediately notice some smoke from under hood and turn it off. I find smoke coming from the AC clutch of all places. Decided to wait a few minutes and restart with AC off from inside dash. Truck starts up and datamaster begins to log but within 1 mins of driving what felt like normal the truck starts cutting out, no boost, no fuel, must feather throttle to keep moving. Meanwhile I find out that the PCM link ADL link to the laptop is in RED error code and will not receive any data! I am unable to log the event so to speak. Pull down a side street and stopped truck.

Per VinnieTy I quickly checked for codes...nothing but 12s showing all clear. The 51 code did not show up.

Run 4 - 3 min - http://www.mediafire.com/?61a3nu7id3157ls

Restarted truck and to my amazement unlike other times when this issues arose the truck started up running good. I even gambled and attempted the AC. Ran good for about 3 mins and then again turned bad...the logger PCM Red error came up and the truck runs like crap. I limped home and couldn't log any of it. Turned off truck and checked again for codes....no error codes on ECU still reads all 12s.

Conclusion of today. New MAP sensor and ignition coil did not fully solve my issue. I do know now that when the truck acts up in the hot weather I can only confidently get data up until it starts running bad and the ECU spits out errors to the datalogger.

2nd Issue of today...not 100% sure what I'm to do about my recently smoking AC compressor clutch. Photo below...it was slightly wet around the pulley after the final run but may be okay, a freak coincidence I'm hoping :roll:

I'll keep you all posted as I delve into the IAC cooling ability too. Hoping I dont have to pull of the bed but will if it comes to it,

Alright good night from here! Pete

 

[BoostedSUV]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

If you're losing datamaster connection when the problem starts it sounds like an issue with the ECM going into limp mode but that usually throws a code. I think the fact that you're losing DM connection at the time the truck acts up is no coincidence and that's where the problem lies. What is causing it is the next hurdle

 

[Emmo]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

The AC compressor appears to still be working. AC pumping out good last night, lines nice and cold.

Got to go work for a few days in NC and then will get back to open to do items, 1.) blurp the CAC and double check the cooling lines and heat exchangers. 2.) Disconnect the remote start ignition line splice. 3.) And start contemplating pulling the bed off again to replace internal pump connector. 4.) Will also look into a replacement ECU from AutoZone based on what I've read on the forum about "limp mode", - I think may be the true "wording" for my situation when it happens...

Will keep you posted! Thanks all, Pete

 

[Emmo]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

Update as of Labor Day weekend...


1.) Took STATIC's advice this weekend regarding the high intercooler temperature and investigated further -

"I think theres issues with your IC. For an 80 degree day your seeing 160 ish IAT. This seems very high to me. How many miles on the truck? I would inspect the lower exchanger internally, check for kinked hose, do the hard line bypass if you havent already, refill the system and make sure no air is trapped." -

Hence, I confirmed hearing "air pockets" in the Johnson IC pump as it flowed. I removed the intercooler and upper line to properly "burp" the system and get all the air out. The sounds flowing through the lines are now much better (remember pump is hotwired and can listen without engine running). Also now able to see and feel good flow in upper CAC. So I tried to drive truck a good trip yesterday. Temperatures here in Atlanta were upper 80s but not quite into the 90s. So truck ran basically good (no limp mode) and I checked my Inlet Air Temperature IAT...still high! There is no air in system and by feeling with fingers the supply/return lines I cannot tell if one line is hotter/cooler than the other. I got a meat thermometer and checked the temperatures around the lower heat exchanger and upper CAC. This is was I'm getting with a hot running truck parked and idling.

Hoses - about 120deg on surface (same temp on each hose)
CAC - about 140deg on surface (upper flat of box)
Lower Exchangers Driver Side Manifold - 130deg
Lower Exchanger Passenger Side Manifold - 110 deg (Maybe a 20 deg delta T with truck sitting still now air flow)

The lower heat exchanger feels by touch like evenly hot in temperature all the way across - either there is good fluid flow or heat has conducted over time across the aluminum.

There are quite a few rock dents in the lower heat exchanger and no lower air scoop. Not sure what the air bypass there is when driving if any. SOOO...I may have to consider replacement of the lower exchanger and possibly add another in front by the radiator to improve IATs? Can I somehow open up the lower exchanger to see if it's full of crud without sawing it in half?

Based on notes above I'm open to new ideas on solving high IAT temps. I'm just not sure how easy it is to find a new OE lower exchanger same size etc. Pretty sure upper CAC is not clogged as I feel flow and hear flow well.

2.) In following up on Bezerker's above post about changing the internal wire to the fuel pump. I dont have a full picture of my redo work I did when replacing the factory pump but after investigating what I bought from RPM, I may indeed already replaced the wires according to this picture below showing what's supplied with the Walbro pump.

http://www.sytyperformance.com/inde...facturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=26

Quick question to Bezerker and others, is this the internal wiring connector in question or is it the actual connection sandwiched between the internal tank and the outer tank flange that acts up over time and gives a poor connection?

Photo of the pump as I installed it back not long ago, just before using new jumper wire,

3.) The AC compressor is working fine no issues there. Ran good all day yesterday. Truck stayed out of limp mode.

4.) Changed the oil as I've got to do emissions this week and pray for cooler weather to pass without going into "limp mode".


Again will keep everyone posted. May take a while but basically down to two things. Either 1.) get IAT under control with some kind of mod or replacement or 2.) replace factory ECU & PROM chip ? Don't even want to think about wiring harness replacement... Later all ! :rock:

 

[Static]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

Someone had a DutchTy upgraded lower cooler for sale recentyl. I remember seeing it for sale in the for sale section. Pricey but a high quality upgrade that helped my truck quite a bit. :2cents:

 

[Emmo]

Re: Dumb Question - and Longtime Goose Chase

Update ... Steady progress here and will be slightly slow for a while out.

Took Static's advice and after a couple of PMs picked up an unused lower IC heat exchanger, DutchTy type. :tup: Perfect timing!!! So awaiting arrival of said exchanger and will see how it helps...definitely excited about this mod so if it cures my summer time problem. Sure enough, outside temperatures here in the South have gone down as Fall has seemingly begun. Squeaked by the emissions test, thanks to a cloudy/cool 70s day,

I will not have a chance to swap the lower ICs until maybe January or maybe next June pending work schedule. :doh: So promise to update this thread as news progresses.

Thanks all! Pete