tippmann243
New member
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
im a scrawney white boy :dunno:
ivanko barbell said:
im a scrawney white boy :dunno:
Starting T-56 Conversion
- Thread starter HighPerformanceTrucks
- Start date
HighPerformanceTrucks
Lift & Shift Specialist
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
J,
You still calling?
Adam
J,
You still calling?
Adam
jjorgensen52
NHSTE - I'm the only one!
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
yeah, just dialing now :tup:ivanko barbell said:
HighPerformanceTrucks
Lift & Shift Specialist
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
Just thought of something. I don't think the hardened VIper 30 tooth output shaft will fit the 27 spline tc?
Just thought of something. I don't think the hardened VIper 30 tooth output shaft will fit the 27 spline tc?
Robert Lone
MUTANT
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
Remember, my output shaft is un-modified nor is the input shaft on the T-case... :tup:ivanko barbell said:
HighPerformanceTrucks
Lift & Shift Specialist
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
Yep, so that rules out the hardened 30 spline shaft.
How your stock output shaft survived those 1.1 60 foot times is beyond me.
Robert Lone said:
Yep, so that rules out the hardened 30 spline shaft.
How your stock output shaft survived those 1.1 60 foot times is beyond me.
jjorgensen52
NHSTE - I'm the only one!
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
Hey Tippmann... I just looked it up and there are some OEM starters for the newer blocks that use a 153t... so I'm going to go with that
Hey Tippmann... I just looked it up and there are some OEM starters for the newer blocks that use a 153t... so I'm going to go with that
Robert Lone
MUTANT
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
...and the time-slip said 1.17 sec on the short time.. :tup:
...again, rumor and time slip, not fact...
My truck still as that output shaft in it.ivanko barbell said:
...and the time-slip said 1.17 sec on the short time.. :tup:
...again, rumor and time slip, not fact...
HighPerformanceTrucks
Lift & Shift Specialist
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
FYI, found this on Pro-touring.com from the original builder of the Quadraduce.
When I first built the Quadra Deuce it used a Borg Warner transfer case out of a Typhoon and a 6 speed out of a F-body.
The out put shaft on the trans mates to the input of the T-56 no problem there. The adapter / extension housing on the tail of the trans was off an aftermarket Mustang conversion tail housing extension with a 1 1/2" chunk of 6061-T6 aluminum welded to it. I had to use the Mustang tail housing to move the shifter forward to clear the adaptor. Once the billet aluminum was welded to the tail housing extension we machined it to match up the to transfer case. But we clocked to 10 degrees up to get more ground clearance.
A note of caution. The Borg Warner engineers that I talked with claimed that the parts could only handle 500 hp in a vehicle that weighed no more the 2800 lbs. So the QD made 500 hp and weighed 2600 lbs. We never fail any parts in the drive train. It went 0-60 in 3.2 seconds as tested by Car and Driver on BFG radials.
I have the blue prints and drawings if some one really wanted to do it again. But there are better parts available now that will handle more power so unless you are building a light car I would go another way.
FYI, found this on Pro-touring.com from the original builder of the Quadraduce.
When I first built the Quadra Deuce it used a Borg Warner transfer case out of a Typhoon and a 6 speed out of a F-body.
The out put shaft on the trans mates to the input of the T-56 no problem there. The adapter / extension housing on the tail of the trans was off an aftermarket Mustang conversion tail housing extension with a 1 1/2" chunk of 6061-T6 aluminum welded to it. I had to use the Mustang tail housing to move the shifter forward to clear the adaptor. Once the billet aluminum was welded to the tail housing extension we machined it to match up the to transfer case. But we clocked to 10 degrees up to get more ground clearance.
A note of caution. The Borg Warner engineers that I talked with claimed that the parts could only handle 500 hp in a vehicle that weighed no more the 2800 lbs. So the QD made 500 hp and weighed 2600 lbs. We never fail any parts in the drive train. It went 0-60 in 3.2 seconds as tested by Car and Driver on BFG radials.
I have the blue prints and drawings if some one really wanted to do it again. But there are better parts available now that will handle more power so unless you are building a light car I would go another way.
'JustDreamin'
Dream: 6LV8 Turbo Bravada
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
I'd seen that posting on ProTouring before. The guy who built Quadraduece is Mark Stileow (spelling?) who was working for Summit at the time (not sure what he's doing now, might still be there). I don't know if he posted it or not, but the details seem accurate. I've got a copy of a Hot Rod magazine from 1995 that has some pics of the drivetrain. The seriously modified tailshaft is clearly evident in the photos and looks to be modified as described.
Advantage of the method he used is that he didn't have to recreate the entire tailshaft. However, welding that big chunk of billet onto the cast tailshaft housing is likely to make it warp all over. And as alot of people have discovered, welding to cast alum that has been exposed to oil (engine oil, trans fluid, whatever) is a royal pain in the butt. It is quite difficult to get all the oil out, so as you're welding, you end up with all kinds of inclusions and such. And because of the potential warpage, you'd have to do finish machining on all the mating surfaces for at least the tcase end at a very minimum. And it would probably be better to weld on the chunk and then do all the machine work.
I kinda like the billet steel tailshaft setup. That doesn't look like it would be all that bad to engineer / build, but there aren't that many internal photos of it either. Am I correct in thinking that the C5 (transaxle) tailshaft case was used for that setup? Advantage of doing it that way is it would be something that could be replicated fairly easily (cost to built 1 or 3 would probably be about the same), and it should be plenty stout. And designed correctly, the steel parts shouldn't move all over the place. Probably still want to leave some material for cleanup skim cuts on the critical surfaces (mating surfaces / locating diameters).
Another possibility would be to mount the shifter to the main case (just ahead of the extension housing mounting surface). I'm not sure where that'd put the shifter in the truck, but that would make the extension housing / tcase adapter would be ALOT easier.
Keep us posted as to what you're doing. I find this conversion really cool, would love to drop a LS2 / T56 / BW4472 in a tube chassis and build a real lightweight 2 seater (like 2000 to 2400lbs).
Oh, and previously I'd mentioned the LT1 flywheel and that it was wacky shaped. What I meant by that is that its not a flat plate style flywheel. The clutch running surface (and pressure plate mounting) is shifted rearward by probably 3/4" or so. But the ring gear and crank mounting positions are the same. So, if you lay the flywheel flat on the ground, its like 1.5" thick, not 3/4" thick like a normal flywheel. And to keep the flywheel the correct weight, the back of the flywheel (against the engine) is cut away. Does that make any sense? Like I said, its wacky.
'JustDreamin'
I'd seen that posting on ProTouring before. The guy who built Quadraduece is Mark Stileow (spelling?) who was working for Summit at the time (not sure what he's doing now, might still be there). I don't know if he posted it or not, but the details seem accurate. I've got a copy of a Hot Rod magazine from 1995 that has some pics of the drivetrain. The seriously modified tailshaft is clearly evident in the photos and looks to be modified as described.
Advantage of the method he used is that he didn't have to recreate the entire tailshaft. However, welding that big chunk of billet onto the cast tailshaft housing is likely to make it warp all over. And as alot of people have discovered, welding to cast alum that has been exposed to oil (engine oil, trans fluid, whatever) is a royal pain in the butt. It is quite difficult to get all the oil out, so as you're welding, you end up with all kinds of inclusions and such. And because of the potential warpage, you'd have to do finish machining on all the mating surfaces for at least the tcase end at a very minimum. And it would probably be better to weld on the chunk and then do all the machine work.
I kinda like the billet steel tailshaft setup. That doesn't look like it would be all that bad to engineer / build, but there aren't that many internal photos of it either. Am I correct in thinking that the C5 (transaxle) tailshaft case was used for that setup? Advantage of doing it that way is it would be something that could be replicated fairly easily (cost to built 1 or 3 would probably be about the same), and it should be plenty stout. And designed correctly, the steel parts shouldn't move all over the place. Probably still want to leave some material for cleanup skim cuts on the critical surfaces (mating surfaces / locating diameters).
Another possibility would be to mount the shifter to the main case (just ahead of the extension housing mounting surface). I'm not sure where that'd put the shifter in the truck, but that would make the extension housing / tcase adapter would be ALOT easier.
Keep us posted as to what you're doing. I find this conversion really cool, would love to drop a LS2 / T56 / BW4472 in a tube chassis and build a real lightweight 2 seater (like 2000 to 2400lbs).
Oh, and previously I'd mentioned the LT1 flywheel and that it was wacky shaped. What I meant by that is that its not a flat plate style flywheel. The clutch running surface (and pressure plate mounting) is shifted rearward by probably 3/4" or so. But the ring gear and crank mounting positions are the same. So, if you lay the flywheel flat on the ground, its like 1.5" thick, not 3/4" thick like a normal flywheel. And to keep the flywheel the correct weight, the back of the flywheel (against the engine) is cut away. Does that make any sense? Like I said, its wacky.
'JustDreamin'
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HighPerformanceTrucks
Lift & Shift Specialist
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
Found this helpful info to match the photos I posted. He adapted the Syclone TC and a T-56 to a XR4X4Ti
Nobody makes a transfercase adapter for a T56. I decided pretty early on that I wanted to use the Borg-Warner full time AWD transfercase from the GMC Syclone. They are proven to be strong and are pretty easy to get in the states. They are also by far the smallest and lightest of the "bolt" transfercases normally found in 4wd/awd trucks. It also has almost the same torque split 36/64 as a MT-75 box and a similer (much largers) viscous coupling.
I didn't choose the T56 because of the extra gear but becuase of the strength and great shifting qualities. It is basically a really big t-5 with a sixth gear. Unlike some of the other performance transmisions out there that can hadle 550+ ft-lbs of torque, it shifts really nice at high RPM.
The get the transfercase to fit, get the overal lenght right, and get the shifter in the correct location, the transmission is sort of a Frankenstien. It bascially has Viper gears with a Camaro output shaft and shift rod along with a Ford shifter and front cover and a C5 Corvette tailhousing The C5 vettes have the transmission in the back of the car bolted directly to the rear differential. The resulting very short tailhousing has a nice pilot diamter that I could use to bolt my transfercase adapter to without having to make a tailhousing that actually held the gears in place.
Found this helpful info to match the photos I posted. He adapted the Syclone TC and a T-56 to a XR4X4Ti
Nobody makes a transfercase adapter for a T56. I decided pretty early on that I wanted to use the Borg-Warner full time AWD transfercase from the GMC Syclone. They are proven to be strong and are pretty easy to get in the states. They are also by far the smallest and lightest of the "bolt" transfercases normally found in 4wd/awd trucks. It also has almost the same torque split 36/64 as a MT-75 box and a similer (much largers) viscous coupling.
I didn't choose the T56 because of the extra gear but becuase of the strength and great shifting qualities. It is basically a really big t-5 with a sixth gear. Unlike some of the other performance transmisions out there that can hadle 550+ ft-lbs of torque, it shifts really nice at high RPM.
The get the transfercase to fit, get the overal lenght right, and get the shifter in the correct location, the transmission is sort of a Frankenstien. It bascially has Viper gears with a Camaro output shaft and shift rod along with a Ford shifter and front cover and a C5 Corvette tailhousing
The C5 vettes have the transmission in the back of the car bolted directly to the rear differential. The resulting very short tailhousing has a nice pilot diamter that I could use to bolt my transfercase adapter to without having to make a tailhousing that actually held the gears in place.'JustDreamin'
Dream: 6LV8 Turbo Bravada
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
I did some looking around on Keisler's website, but couldn't find any useful info about the various shifter locations available. I think there are only like 9 different locations available from Keisler.
The steel extension housing has the advantage of being reasonably simple to build, but has a significant disadvantage. The shifter location needs to be either in the steel extension housing (which both compicates the extension housing and moves the shifter way back) or you've got to run it on the main case, which puts it way forward.
Looking at the available "normal" extension housings, the Viper ext housing puts it the closest to the main case (furthest forward). I think the Mustang is the next location back. I'm not sure if there is an LS1 & and LT1 extension housing or just an F-body housing, but one of them puts the shifter way way way at the back.
And from what I can tell, the Viper gearsets are thicker, which yields a higher torque rating. Keisler's website lists the Viper gearset equipped trans as being rated for 650 hp (vs 475 hp the non-Viper sets.) I know RSGear was building "Tranzilla" T56's they were rating for nearly 900hp. Not sure of their rating method, however, or the parts content of those transmissions.
'JustDreamin'
I did some looking around on Keisler's website, but couldn't find any useful info about the various shifter locations available. I think there are only like 9 different locations available from Keisler.
The steel extension housing has the advantage of being reasonably simple to build, but has a significant disadvantage. The shifter location needs to be either in the steel extension housing (which both compicates the extension housing and moves the shifter way back) or you've got to run it on the main case, which puts it way forward.
Looking at the available "normal" extension housings, the Viper ext housing puts it the closest to the main case (furthest forward). I think the Mustang is the next location back. I'm not sure if there is an LS1 & and LT1 extension housing or just an F-body housing, but one of them puts the shifter way way way at the back.
And from what I can tell, the Viper gearsets are thicker, which yields a higher torque rating. Keisler's website lists the Viper gearset equipped trans as being rated for 650 hp (vs 475 hp the non-Viper sets.) I know RSGear was building "Tranzilla" T56's they were rating for nearly 900hp. Not sure of their rating method, however, or the parts content of those transmissions.
'JustDreamin'
tippmann243
New member
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
my trans is a 98 but i converted it to the lt1 style and as fasr as i know all shifter locations are the same for f bodies
you can see how the shifter is all the way back
this is where it came through compared to the old 5 speed hole
where the shifter comes up compared to the seats
notice the "plate" in the old 5 speed hole. there is a company that makes aconversion shifter for the t56 to moun it in the location. for a stock 5 speed the stick come up EXACTLY in the same location
JustDreamin said:
my trans is a 98 but i converted it to the lt1 style and as fasr as i know all shifter locations are the same for f bodies
you can see how the shifter is all the way back
this is where it came through compared to the old 5 speed hole
where the shifter comes up compared to the seats
notice the "plate" in the old 5 speed hole. there is a company that makes aconversion shifter for the t56 to moun it in the location. for a stock 5 speed the stick come up EXACTLY in the same location
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
well i started with a '98 ls1 tranny. (see original post) kept the same f-body tail housing and the same shifter location and welded the adapter to it, i did have the face remachined because of warpage.
the location of the tranny/transcase mount makes me feal safe. yea welding cast parts together isnt the best but because of the location of the mount, i think the mount does a good job of helping holding the two together(god i hope that makes sense)
it moves the shifter back, but i like it, removed the center console, much cleaner, like a hot rod.
the final product work out great. im very happy with it. i also just recently rebuilt the t56 with all new parts and had them cryo'd. putting back in the truck tonight
matt
well i started with a '98 ls1 tranny. (see original post) kept the same f-body tail housing and the same shifter location and welded the adapter to it, i did have the face remachined because of warpage.
the location of the tranny/transcase mount makes me feal safe. yea welding cast parts together isnt the best but because of the location of the mount, i think the mount does a good job of helping holding the two together(god i hope that makes sense)
it moves the shifter back, but i like it, removed the center console, much cleaner, like a hot rod.
the final product work out great. im very happy with it. i also just recently rebuilt the t56 with all new parts and had them cryo'd. putting back in the truck tonight
matt
'JustDreamin'
Dream: 6LV8 Turbo Bravada
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
So, looking at the pictures Tippmann243 provided, the main case shifter location would put the shifter right in the current hole. Which may be way too far forward, but that's a matter of personal preference.
If that shifter location was used, the tcase adapter could certainly be alot simpler. At that point, if one used the C5 extension housing, a welded steel adapter would be fairly simple. Basically a piece of tubing in between two flat plates. Wouldn't have to fabricate all of that shifter housing hardware which makes it a complicated weldment. Has a "simple elegance" to it.
I may just have to start thinking harder about my 2 seat tube chassis AWD sportscar dream. Maybe start doing some actual design / engineering now that one of my biggest hangups (how to make the T56 / 4472 setup practical) at least has a solution that doesn't involve structural welding on big high precision cast alum parts. I don't know about you guys, but just the thought of a 500hp+ LSx V8 + 6 speed manual + AWD in a 2000 to 2400lb makes me want to start cutting and welding tubing. It might even get good gas mileage with that little weight........
'JustDreamin'
So, looking at the pictures Tippmann243 provided, the main case shifter location would put the shifter right in the current hole. Which may be way too far forward, but that's a matter of personal preference.
If that shifter location was used, the tcase adapter could certainly be alot simpler. At that point, if one used the C5 extension housing, a welded steel adapter would be fairly simple. Basically a piece of tubing in between two flat plates. Wouldn't have to fabricate all of that shifter housing hardware which makes it a complicated weldment. Has a "simple elegance" to it.
I may just have to start thinking harder about my 2 seat tube chassis AWD sportscar dream. Maybe start doing some actual design / engineering now that one of my biggest hangups (how to make the T56 / 4472 setup practical) at least has a solution that doesn't involve structural welding on big high precision cast alum parts. I don't know about you guys, but just the thought of a 500hp+ LSx V8 + 6 speed manual + AWD in a 2000 to 2400lb makes me want to start cutting and welding tubing. It might even get good gas mileage with that little weight........
'JustDreamin'
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HighPerformanceTrucks
Lift & Shift Specialist
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
You would still have to fab a shifter housing because the photos of the 2wd setup with the shifter in the reaward hole doesn't require an adapter to fit the transfer case.
Adam
You would still have to fab a shifter housing because the photos of the 2wd setup with the shifter in the reaward hole doesn't require an adapter to fit the transfer case.
Adam
JustDreamin said:
HighPerformanceTrucks
Lift & Shift Specialist
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
FWIW, I spoke with Pratt & Miller designers of the GMC Envoy Pikes Peak, Le Mans C6 vettes and Rolex GTOs as well as Chad Ragland from Ragland Racing and they ran an auto as they said they couldn't get a manual to live in the AWD truck.
FWIW, I spoke with Pratt & Miller designers of the GMC Envoy Pikes Peak, Le Mans C6 vettes and Rolex GTOs as well as Chad Ragland from Ragland Racing and they ran an auto as they said they couldn't get a manual to live in the AWD truck.
'JustDreamin'
Dream: 6LV8 Turbo Bravada
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
Keisler has a shifter assembly that mounts to the forward position. If you look in the pictures that Tippmann243 posted, there is a flat steel plate just behind the Tremec sticker and about 6 inches ahead of the shifter. Keisler sells a shifter setup to put the shifter there.
If you used that shifter setup and used the C5 extension housing, the tcase adapter would be simplified since you wouldn't need the shifter box (since you'd already have it). Which means the adapter would be basically 2 flat plates with a piece of tubing in between. Might need a shaft seal in there somewhere. And I don't know where the speedometer pickup is located (may need a provision for that too).
I guess the question that has to be asked to those guys (and I'm not sure they'd part with some of the information) is:
what kind of power they were pushing
what the vehicle weight was
what was done to the box to try to make it live.
what broke / how it failed.
You might also converse with George Kreppein @ Rockland Standard Gear and pick his brain as to how a set-on-kill-build T56 would fare in your application. They've got a bunch of 300E, Cryo'd, and other custom parts to put a stout T56 together.
'JustDreamin'
I don't think I communicated accurately what I was suggesting....ivanko barbell said:
Keisler has a shifter assembly that mounts to the forward position. If you look in the pictures that Tippmann243 posted, there is a flat steel plate just behind the Tremec sticker and about 6 inches ahead of the shifter. Keisler sells a shifter setup to put the shifter there.
If you used that shifter setup and used the C5 extension housing, the tcase adapter would be simplified since you wouldn't need the shifter box (since you'd already have it). Which means the adapter would be basically 2 flat plates with a piece of tubing in between. Might need a shaft seal in there somewhere. And I don't know where the speedometer pickup is located (may need a provision for that too).
Now that represents a whole different problem.ivanko barbell said:
I guess the question that has to be asked to those guys (and I'm not sure they'd part with some of the information) is:
what kind of power they were pushing
what the vehicle weight was
what was done to the box to try to make it live.
what broke / how it failed.
You might also converse with George Kreppein @ Rockland Standard Gear and pick his brain as to how a set-on-kill-build T56 would fare in your application. They've got a bunch of 300E, Cryo'd, and other custom parts to put a stout T56 together.
'JustDreamin'
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HighPerformanceTrucks
Lift & Shift Specialist
Re: Starting T-56 Conversion
Sorry, I'm so pressed for time always that I just skim over posts most of the time. I'll take a closer look and reply tonight.
Adam
Sorry, I'm so pressed for time always that I just skim over posts most of the time. I'll take a closer look and reply tonight.
Adam
JustDreamin said: