Another head question, maxed out vortec?

[Pittman]

I know the vortecs are nice and understand all the benefits. What about the others out there. Like 18* brodix heads for example. My longterm goal is 11.5 (maybe faster in longterm) on pump gas maybe some alcy. Whats the baddest heads you can get?

Do the real mega bad @ss syclones use vortecs? Or, are they using something a little more exotic.

Will KB or ATR work on the 18* heads and what about manifold?

Thanks

_________________
Syclone #0312

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pittman on 2002-03-25 00:25 ]</font>

 

[Pittman]

just to state one thing and not get into a 5 page debate on heads. How far will a pair of vortec heads take you??

 

[jwaller]

It has been proven that stock heads can get you into the low 12's. so I think a good pair of vortecs should get you into the low 11's. Hell Mccoy is in the high 9's with his vortecs.

 

[smeagol]

A good pair of Vortecs have gone 10s already, and I think there is more left.

It's all about the combination. I don't think you should consider 18 deg heads until you want to do mid/low 10s or faster.

 

[Pittman]

Why not do the 18* degree heads in the first place I assume the cost isnt that much more.

I would imagine the streetability goes way down or something. Ive had some really nasty heads on several of my bikes they run like a bat out of hell but the low end just stunk. I had an 1100 that was literaly a pain in the ass to ride around town becuase it was a dog on the low end and when it got into the power band it was like riding a po-go stick. So really the bike was useless for street enjoyemnt.

Ill have a pte52 blowing through whatever I put on it, but dont want to lose all the low end iether

 

[apple_juice]

18 Degree heads = new pistons ($800) + daytona dash intake ($500) + conversion to fuel injection on daytona dash ($300) + Mike Lee Twin Turbo headers (only ones that fit 18 degree heads) $2000 + 90 degree elbow on top of intake $200 + accufab 90mm throttle body ($275) + Iac conversion kit ($150)

Thats a total of $4225 (and I am probably forgetting something). Unless McCoy has raised his prices recently I think you can do vortecs for cheaper then that. You could call up brodix and get some custom alluminum heads made up that will allow you to run stock intake and stock type headers. But again, those will run more the vortecs. If all you want is 11.50's with some head room to go faster later on then the Vortecs will work just fine.
Ed

 

[FLSY2730]

So, if i want to run 18 d. heads down the road on a different build I would only have one header option?

 

[smeagol]

Other than custom, yes. The ports are at different locations, different sizes, and at different angle than anything else out there.

They are pretty crazy heads... very cool.

On a max effort motor, I still would consider using the Pontiac heads...they are damn beefy & trick looking.

 

[FLSY2730]

How much are pontiac heads and do headers bolt up or custom only? What do pontiac heads flow? Alot, right. Alright Brian, if money was not the issue and you going to build a motor that could put a AWD sy in the low 10s, maybe even high 9s, drivetrain withstanding what combo would you look at. What h.p. level do you think it would take to put the truck in the low 10s with AWD? Just curious. jack

 

[smeagol]

Dunno how much they are. You can find them similarly priced to 18s, Brodix etc.

Exhaust is *close* to fitting the KB headers.. I was going to try to make it fit on my Syclone back in the day. The Daytona Dash intake is made to fit these heads. Mike has them on his Ty, and Stokes has used them to make 1250hp.

For low 10s in a Sy, i'd do the Pontiacs, single turbo, you *could* stay hydraulic roller with a radical cam, and even fire steel crank. I'd say that'd be the threshold, past that...go oddfire, solid roller cam.

That's just me though..and I haven't gone low 10s.

 

[Pittman]

"In Short" right now a good pair of vortecs is what I need to run 11's maybe high 10's down the road.

Later if I wanted to do a real monster motor I would have build something with another top end.

SO far Ive done business with McCoy and Mike (really need to give mike business next, good guy) Who does the best heads?

 

[nightdiver]

with all this head talk i find my KB heads too damn small although they flow 222 cfm
Do you know how low can i go with those heads ?
my target is mid to high 10s......???????

 

[ghettosled]

I would like to see what Torreys stock heads flow. Although the casting sucks, he has made some really impressive power with them. By no means would I suggest them.

The vortec combo will go high 10s as already proven. The pontiac heads are raised runner so intake mods would have to be alloted for, and the exhasut ports are pretty close to stock.

18 deg heads have really small cc's. like high 40s. I have some pontiacs that flow in the elow 300s, and some 18deg that flow in the 330s.

I would imagine some really ported vortecs would flow in the 275-280cfm range on a accurate bench.

 

[100in6]

Also, if you are going to that maximum effort engine with these big number heads you will need a bigger cam to turn it higher than in the 5K rpm range. don't forget the forged rods, pistons, and crank if you want it to stay together brodix used to be the ones who made the pontiac heads. they do make a set of heads with straight plugs that will work with atr headers and they can make it so it will bolt up to a stock intake. either a -8,-10.or -11 depending on how big you want to go. only problem is...has anyone ever heard about them really making more power? on paper they should. aluminum for better heat dispersion and detonation problems, bigger valves, the whole works. just don't really know if anyone has gotten them and what the combo is. from what I hear the vortecs can do better under 5600 rpm. I'd be interested in a set if I knew the right combo

 

[ghettosled]

The Brodix -8 head with straight plugs is supposed to bolt to atr/stock headers. However, some have had to modify the primary tubes to fit these.. They are a perfect fit for the stock intake.

A -10 has a raised intake runner so it wont bolt to the factory style intake manifold.

We are getting the -8's to flow 300/230ish , the -10s(pontiacs) will go 320/240, the 18 deg bowtie heads go 355/240, and the splayed valve heads went 388/260. All at .600 and 28".

FYI, Brodix will claim about 260 cfm on the intake with the -8s out of the box. Thats about what they flow with a street strip port job. Our bench was about 35cfm less then what they were claiming.

 

[FLSY2730]

What do you think would flow more, a ported vortec or ported brodix 8?

 

[ghettosled]

brodix

 

[JSM]

While we are on this subject with some good info, I have a question/theory, etc.

Does PEAK flow really matter with the turbo stuff?

Being as the flow #'s are tested under vacuum.

What are the changes involved in flow when under pressure -vs- vacuum.??

Another thing is doesn't the total flow, aka area under curve, have a big affect. Just like HP, if you peak at 400hp, but only make 100 everywhere else, that can't be as good as 300hp everywhere.

What are some people thoughts on this???

 

[100in6]

do you think the brodix will make more power in the low or middle or just on top. I've heard under 6K the vortec will kick their butts. I would tend to think that a brodix will be superior in all ways to a vortec. brodix tells me that they can do a straight angle plug to work with atr headers and the 10x 23 degree which is the same valve angle as the GM's already has a60 thousands dowel shift so it will bolt up with the stock intake. mine is allready welded up and would probably require a little more blending. I would think that the aluminum would dissipate heat better and the combustion chamber design would be at least as good as the vortecs if not better.

So, On paper it appears that the brodix would be the better choice all around. My only quandry is, a couple of folds that do the vortec say the brodix really doesn't make more power unless you spin the motor much higher than I'm spinning mine. hell, I got the thing all tore down now caause to get the heads off with studs holding em on was a real bitch so putting a different cam in is no big deal. everything in the motor is pretty bullit proof so spinning it faster is not any concern. (bowtie, olivers, j&e's moldex 4 bolt forged, etc

mybe i'm being anal retentive, but I'm just trying to cover all my bases before writing checks and finding out something doesn't work. the heads that are on mine now are a set of supposedly maximum effort L35 that were done by flow technologies in detroit. I have toadmit that they are a thing of beauty, but I would think there is a lot more in a set of vortecs or brodix than well worked L35's but I've been wrong befor and I'm sure i'll be wrong again. maybe the vortecs are my best bet, but the price isn't that far off if I do it now
should I call you?

I enjoy your comments and opinions on the board

 

[smeagol]

There was a big cylinder head discussion in GMHTP a few months back that was pretty interesting. It was V8's, but it doesn't matter cuz it took most of the aftermarket stuff, and threw the Vortec V8 heads in with the bunch. Vortec V8 has the same design as the V6 FWIW.

Anyways, taking into consideration the swirl, combustion chamber design, low lift flow data, and everything else, they said the Vortec was the underdog of the bunch, and also raved about the LS1 heads.

The rest of the heads had mixed reviews, but the 2 things that stuck out for me were their praises on the LS1 & Vortec heads.

I'll try to dig up that article.

Bottom line, there is more than max lift flow involved. It'd be interesting if they had Brodix, 18 degree heads and whatnot in that flow comparison.