a2a OR w2a
- Thread starter sy2675
- Start date
Black Knight
I Glow Therefore I am
Re: a2a OR w2a
I think they're just saying that it seems from time to time SyTy's react differently then other vehicles.
I think they're just saying that it seems from time to time SyTy's react differently then other vehicles.
gkrcr882
SyTyless......for now!
Re: a2a OR w2a
In the defense of the SyTy W2A system, it is mounted poorly, (being angled instead of flat), and the stock rubber blade really doesn't do anything. In the defense of the A2A, it is a simpler system, and there is no need to worry about coolant levels or pumps dying. To each his own.:tup:
In the defense of the SyTy W2A system, it is mounted poorly, (being angled instead of flat), and the stock rubber blade really doesn't do anything. In the defense of the A2A, it is a simpler system, and there is no need to worry about coolant levels or pumps dying. To each his own.:tup:
James Thomas
"NO CLASS"
Re: a2a OR w2a
Man this thread really sucks, errr...... blows...... uh wait a sec.... boost not vacume... yea that's it! BLOWS :rotf: . Look BVM, don't sweat it. You, I and several others that are lurking and laughing know what we need to know. No one is trying to discredit you (well most anyway). It's just that there are some real hard heads to crack around here when it comes to a lot of things "outside the norm". Most of the shops push A2A because it's accepted, easy (well kinda) and does have pretty decent results for the average user (and a few other reasons) and A2A is the majority / norm here because the stock set up does leave a LOT to be improved on and desired. Do to that O.E.M. short fall, years ago Kenne Bell, A.T.R., Connely and others came out with a "better than O.E.M. replacement" that was A2A and it just kinda stuck that "A2A is the performance replacement / upgrade for A2W".
Just like superchargers are the majority / norm on the Stang fourms. For every one turbo Mustang you will find 5 or more with superchargers..... same deal here on A2A vs. A2W debate.
No biggie bro! Grab you a Ty or a Sy and pratice what you preach, you will go far my son :tup: ! As for me the below core was originally built by Spearco and is being modified right now by them for a new inlet / outlet's, water tanks and some "top seceret coating work and other mods to my specs.) that I will do when it returns from their facility next week. It was re-designed, built and has now been flow, pressure and thermal tested to support 1200+ HP with a static flow of 1400+ cfm and negligable drop across the core.
That is at this time and I have not done my coating mods to it yet (mind you that this is really nothing special as all decent systems air or liquid should do this...... but many do not)! This is an old pic but it is roughly 1/3 the size of the average A2A set up most of the fella's are using / selling and ......... it can be mounted just about "any damn place I want to put it!" Try that with an A2A setup?
Note: If any one would like to contest this or say B/S, please feel free to contact:
Jonny Wang
Cheif Design Engineer & Product Manager - Heat Exchangers & Turbo Systems
Turbonetics / Spearco, Inc.
2255 Agate Court
Simi Valley, CA 93065
Tel. 805.581.0333
Fax: 805.584.1913
So..... Welcome, find a nice Ty, keep thinking outside the A2A "box" and lets swap notes!
_____________
James
Man this thread really sucks, errr...... blows...... uh wait a sec.... boost not vacume... yea that's it! BLOWS :rotf: . Look BVM, don't sweat it. You, I and several others that are lurking and laughing know what we need to know. No one is trying to discredit you (well most anyway). It's just that there are some real hard heads to crack around here when it comes to a lot of things "outside the norm". Most of the shops push A2A because it's accepted, easy (well kinda) and does have pretty decent results for the average user (and a few other reasons) and A2A is the majority / norm here because the stock set up does leave a LOT to be improved on and desired. Do to that O.E.M. short fall, years ago Kenne Bell, A.T.R., Connely and others came out with a "better than O.E.M. replacement" that was A2A and it just kinda stuck that "A2A is the performance replacement / upgrade for A2W".
Just like superchargers are the majority / norm on the Stang fourms. For every one turbo Mustang you will find 5 or more with superchargers..... same deal here on A2A vs. A2W debate.
No biggie bro! Grab you a Ty or a Sy and pratice what you preach, you will go far my son :tup: ! As for me the below core was originally built by Spearco and is being modified right now by them for a new inlet / outlet's, water tanks and some "top seceret coating work and other mods to my specs.) that I will do when it returns from their facility next week. It was re-designed, built and has now been flow, pressure and thermal tested to support 1200+ HP with a static flow of 1400+ cfm and negligable drop across the core.
That is at this time and I have not done my coating mods to it yet (mind you that this is really nothing special as all decent systems air or liquid should do this...... but many do not)! This is an old pic but it is roughly 1/3 the size of the average A2A set up most of the fella's are using / selling and ......... it can be mounted just about "any damn place I want to put it!" Try that with an A2A setup?
Note: If any one would like to contest this or say B/S, please feel free to contact:
Jonny Wang
Cheif Design Engineer & Product Manager - Heat Exchangers & Turbo Systems
Turbonetics / Spearco, Inc.
2255 Agate Court
Simi Valley, CA 93065
Tel. 805.581.0333
Fax: 805.584.1913
So..... Welcome, find a nice Ty, keep thinking outside the A2A "box" and lets swap notes!
_____________
James
ghettosled
SYTY SUPERSTORE
Re: a2a OR w2a
your imput is valued, however it is based upon theory and certain laws of physics with the assumsions that various conditions will be met.
I just dont understand how you can recommend something when you havent even tried it yourself. If I understand correctly, you have little to no hands on expirience with a syty or how the stock a/l system works.
For intance, your expirience with a/l intercoolers probably doesnt place the intercooler right on top of the turbocharger and downpipe like the syty. This in itself is one MAJOR factor in why the stock a/l setup does not work as efficiently on a syty. Sure there are coatings, heat wrap, blankets etc which all help to a certain point. Gievn an adequate engine bay, i'm sure proper placement of the same components would work ALOT better, but we dont have that luxury. Atleast with an a/a if your charge pipe goes over the downpipe, under acceleration the air is moving so fast it is not given the chance to heat soak unlike the a/l intercooler that just sits there and boils in the hot underhood temps.
I have never said your points were not valid or that you had no idea what you are talking about, i just did not understand some of your arguements, b/c in a syty application it is simply impossible or highly unlikely.
BVM said:
your imput is valued, however it is based upon theory and certain laws of physics with the assumsions that various conditions will be met.
I just dont understand how you can recommend something when you havent even tried it yourself. If I understand correctly, you have little to no hands on expirience with a syty or how the stock a/l system works.
For intance, your expirience with a/l intercoolers probably doesnt place the intercooler right on top of the turbocharger and downpipe like the syty. This in itself is one MAJOR factor in why the stock a/l setup does not work as efficiently on a syty. Sure there are coatings, heat wrap, blankets etc which all help to a certain point. Gievn an adequate engine bay, i'm sure proper placement of the same components would work ALOT better, but we dont have that luxury. Atleast with an a/a if your charge pipe goes over the downpipe, under acceleration the air is moving so fast it is not given the chance to heat soak unlike the a/l intercooler that just sits there and boils in the hot underhood temps.
I have never said your points were not valid or that you had no idea what you are talking about, i just did not understand some of your arguements, b/c in a syty application it is simply impossible or highly unlikely.
ghettosled
SYTY SUPERSTORE
Re: a2a OR w2a
actually KB was the only one who came out with an a/a. Connely, and ATR both used a larger A/L intercooler manufactored by Cartech. When i showed George Spears (founder of spearco) the a/l about 10 years ago, he told me the aftermarket a/l would net the same results as the stock one, given its location and outlet bottle neck to the TB.
James, the pic you listed is a great intercooler, and works good to about 900hp. In fact i believe the Hoovers have used the same core ever since they were running high 10s. If you plumb it with ice water you with be very happy with the results. If you use heat exchangers, you will still have a hard time keeping your MAT's in line with the a/a's on the street.
When i walk into jonnys office monday morning to pick up my parts i'll have to ask him whats so special about your intercooler that i have been missing out on
Here's another pic of your intercooler core installed on a syty:
.
James Thomas said:
actually KB was the only one who came out with an a/a. Connely, and ATR both used a larger A/L intercooler manufactored by Cartech. When i showed George Spears (founder of spearco) the a/l about 10 years ago, he told me the aftermarket a/l would net the same results as the stock one, given its location and outlet bottle neck to the TB.
James, the pic you listed is a great intercooler, and works good to about 900hp. In fact i believe the Hoovers have used the same core ever since they were running high 10s. If you plumb it with ice water you with be very happy with the results. If you use heat exchangers, you will still have a hard time keeping your MAT's in line with the a/a's on the street.
When i walk into jonnys office monday morning to pick up my parts i'll have to ask him whats so special about your intercooler that i have been missing out on
Here's another pic of your intercooler core installed on a syty:
James Thomas
"NO CLASS"
Re: a2a OR w2a
Yep that was then. Like I said, old pic though. Core is larger now, tank's, fittings, in's & out's are way different. Don't know where the 900 Hp number came from though. The original "twin core" configuration is higher than that and this was when it originaly was Nick Steffens I/C at that time in 03' or so. He sold it to Anthony and I bought it from him several month's ago. Here was Jonny's original e-mail to me:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Palacios
To: windsockinc@pticom.com
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 9:29 AM
Subject: FW: Custom Built I/C assembly for 92' GMC Syclone
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Johnny Wang
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 4:29 PM
To: Ralph Palacios
Subject: RE: Custom Built I/C assembly for 92' GMC Syclone
The intercooler will support about 1,000-1,100 hp using a 20GPH water pump…
About 1,430 CFM.
Johnny Wang
Product Manager, Heat Exchangers & Turbo Systems
Turbonetics, Inc.
2255 Agate Court
Simi Valley, CA 93065
Tel. 805.581.0333
Fax: 805.584.1913
From: James R. Thomas [mailto:cycles@vzpacifica.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:24 AM
To: Ralph Palacios
Subject: Custom Built I/C assembly for 92' GMC Typhoon
Johnny / Ralph,
This is the I/C that was custom ordered from Spearco direct in 2003. The customer's name was Nick Steffens from Knoxville, Tennessee if that helps (if you keep records). It appears that this I/C is two Pn# 2-171 cores joined. The inlet is 2.5" in dia. the outlet is 3.0" in dia.
That I need to know about this I/C in this configuration is:
What is the flow C.F.M. aprox.?
What H.P.Level will it support at rated T/D?
Recommended / rated coolant flow in G.P.H. for T/D?
Any info. would be much appericated! You may return contact me via this e-mail and please also cc to windsockinc@pticom.com. As stated this I/C was built by Spearco on a special order. I would like to have another built or this unit modified to match my my engine requirments of aprox. 1200-1300 hp if possible. I am the current owner of this I/C and modification or new fabrication is acceptable either U.S or Japan due to out Pacific location, which ever is most expedient. If modified, the I/C sould be flow / pressure and T/D tested then all tanks removed for further modifications of thermal transfer and Ionized vapor coatings by us upon return.
Regards,
James R. Thomas
President & C.E.O.
The Umbrella Group LLC.
M.P.S. Inc.
Windsock Inc.
Island Cycle & Performance
J&J Auto & Industrial
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________
James
Yep that was then. Like I said, old pic though. Core is larger now, tank's, fittings, in's & out's are way different. Don't know where the 900 Hp number came from though. The original "twin core" configuration is higher than that and this was when it originaly was Nick Steffens I/C at that time in 03' or so. He sold it to Anthony and I bought it from him several month's ago. Here was Jonny's original e-mail to me:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Palacios
To: windsockinc@pticom.com
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 9:29 AM
Subject: FW: Custom Built I/C assembly for 92' GMC Syclone
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Johnny Wang
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 4:29 PM
To: Ralph Palacios
Subject: RE: Custom Built I/C assembly for 92' GMC Syclone
The intercooler will support about 1,000-1,100 hp using a 20GPH water pump…
About 1,430 CFM.
Johnny Wang
Product Manager, Heat Exchangers & Turbo Systems
Turbonetics, Inc.
2255 Agate Court
Simi Valley, CA 93065
Tel. 805.581.0333
Fax: 805.584.1913
From: James R. Thomas [mailto:cycles@vzpacifica.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:24 AM
To: Ralph Palacios
Subject: Custom Built I/C assembly for 92' GMC Typhoon
Johnny / Ralph,
This is the I/C that was custom ordered from Spearco direct in 2003. The customer's name was Nick Steffens from Knoxville, Tennessee if that helps (if you keep records). It appears that this I/C is two Pn# 2-171 cores joined. The inlet is 2.5" in dia. the outlet is 3.0" in dia.
That I need to know about this I/C in this configuration is:
What is the flow C.F.M. aprox.?
What H.P.Level will it support at rated T/D?
Recommended / rated coolant flow in G.P.H. for T/D?
Any info. would be much appericated! You may return contact me via this e-mail and please also cc to windsockinc@pticom.com. As stated this I/C was built by Spearco on a special order. I would like to have another built or this unit modified to match my my engine requirments of aprox. 1200-1300 hp if possible. I am the current owner of this I/C and modification or new fabrication is acceptable either U.S or Japan due to out Pacific location, which ever is most expedient. If modified, the I/C sould be flow / pressure and T/D tested then all tanks removed for further modifications of thermal transfer and Ionized vapor coatings by us upon return.
Regards,
James R. Thomas
President & C.E.O.
The Umbrella Group LLC.
M.P.S. Inc.
Windsock Inc.
Island Cycle & Performance
J&J Auto & Industrial
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________
James
vortecfiero
New member
Re: a2a OR w2a
I would imagine after driving in stop and go traffic and having a fan on the exhanger,
the A/W maybe cooler initially and also A/W can be smaller to do that same job.
In my setup A/w is the only way to go
I would imagine after driving in stop and go traffic and having a fan on the exhanger,
the A/W maybe cooler initially and also A/W can be smaller to do that same job.
In my setup A/w is the only way to go
BVM
Stock '04 GTO
Re: a2a OR w2a
I am familiar with many different platforms including the SyTy. I bought one when new. If you are asking if I know the flow rate of the pump, CFM rating of the intercooler then no. I do however perform this type of work on quite regularly.
You assume much with that last statement. Ever looked under the hood of a WRX/STI? If so then you will notice the close proximity of the turbo and intercooler as well. They are as close if not more so than the SyTy.
One thing you will find with me regardless of my qualifications and experience, is that I am not afraid to ask questions. All cars have their own idiosyncrasy's. Asking questions if the best way to discover them.
Also, in what way could you have possibly expected me to take a comment like "Do you even own a SyTy"? Came across very condescending to me.
Anyway, once my Ty arrives in country expect to see some out of the box thinking.
ghettosled said:
I am familiar with many different platforms including the SyTy. I bought one when new. If you are asking if I know the flow rate of the pump, CFM rating of the intercooler then no. I do however perform this type of work on quite regularly.
You assume much with that last statement. Ever looked under the hood of a WRX/STI? If so then you will notice the close proximity of the turbo and intercooler as well. They are as close if not more so than the SyTy.
One thing you will find with me regardless of my qualifications and experience, is that I am not afraid to ask questions. All cars have their own idiosyncrasy's. Asking questions if the best way to discover them.
Also, in what way could you have possibly expected me to take a comment like "Do you even own a SyTy"? Came across very condescending to me.
Anyway, once my Ty arrives in country expect to see some out of the box thinking.
BVM
Stock '04 GTO
Re: a2a OR w2a
Absolutely. I followed your work on PFF. The point some seem to be missing is that the W2A can be smaller is because its more efficent.
When we get back to the states I am thinking of building a boosted Ecotec Fiero or an EJ207 powered Corvair. Both of which will be W2A.
vortecfiero said:
Absolutely. I followed your work on PFF. The point some seem to be missing is that the W2A can be smaller is because its more efficent.
When we get back to the states I am thinking of building a boosted Ecotec Fiero or an EJ207 powered Corvair. Both of which will be W2A.
dgoodhue
BuSTeD 4.3
Re: a2a OR w2a
Here is my :2cents: on real world application of SyTy intercoolers.
Now that alky injection is common, IAT are no longer a problem. Many times we IAT ambient and sometime even below that.
With a stock turbo, if the stock IC is working properly, their is no need to use anything else besides alky. Your not going to get any significant IAT (except maybe with an IC box at the track) The only you really can improve on is the pressure drop accrosc the upper core.
The stock upper IC does become a restriction at some point, but at it has gone as fast as 10.2-3's. As I mention before, it kind of become a PIA with bigger builds, with fabrication brackets for some valve covers, hard entry angles with bigger turbo's. The simpllicity does also weigh in as big plus for A2A. Yes the A2A has longer pipes, but the stock W2A has its core restrictions. Yes, you could use a aftermarket W2A to over the stock W2A short comings.
With a propely size W2A (like picture above) and A2A cores, I bet the biggest difference would be the length of the pipe (A2A) vs complextity/weight (W2A). With Alky, I wouldn't be surprised to see any measurable IAT or performance differences. I would guess its comes down to preference and pricing. When looking to upgrade A2A comes out on top right now for most because that is what is available.
Here is my :2cents: on real world application of SyTy intercoolers.
Now that alky injection is common, IAT are no longer a problem. Many times we IAT ambient and sometime even below that.
With a stock turbo, if the stock IC is working properly, their is no need to use anything else besides alky. Your not going to get any significant IAT (except maybe with an IC box at the track) The only you really can improve on is the pressure drop accrosc the upper core.
The stock upper IC does become a restriction at some point, but at it has gone as fast as 10.2-3's. As I mention before, it kind of become a PIA with bigger builds, with fabrication brackets for some valve covers, hard entry angles with bigger turbo's. The simpllicity does also weigh in as big plus for A2A. Yes the A2A has longer pipes, but the stock W2A has its core restrictions. Yes, you could use a aftermarket W2A to over the stock W2A short comings.
With a propely size W2A (like picture above) and A2A cores, I bet the biggest difference would be the length of the pipe (A2A) vs complextity/weight (W2A). With Alky, I wouldn't be surprised to see any measurable IAT or performance differences. I would guess its comes down to preference and pricing. When looking to upgrade A2A comes out on top right now for most because that is what is available.
Black Knight
I Glow Therefore I am
Re: a2a OR w2a
And at Mikes expense one more reason to go front mount A2A, so you don't have to worry about ripping your scoop off anymore.
http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=43505
And at Mikes expense one more reason to go front mount A2A, so you don't have to worry about ripping your scoop off anymore.
http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=43505
Re: a2a OR w2a
i would like to say thanks to mike lee and bvm ( sorry i dont know your name )....for agreeing to disagree as it allows people like myself to understand both setups better.we all have our different opinions...but real world " tried and true testing on our trucks...and i say our trucks because hey guess what...that's what we drive st/ty's" outweighs any theory or written down on paper this should work better crap. true world results and testing is what matters.
i apploud james and bvm for making their stand about a/l...hey guys prove that a2l is better/ cheaper and more efficient via true world testing on our application and show us what you come up with. i'd love to see a side by side comparison.
based on availability, cost, and proven results a/a is the best setup for our trucks @ this moment. partially because of cost...most guys complain about 1200.00 for an a2a setup most less all the extra cost and componets needed to run a/l....
in my opinion there would have to be one heck of a diff in iat temps and consistency for me to spend an xtra grand or so for the a/l....
i would like to say thanks to mike lee and bvm ( sorry i dont know your name )....for agreeing to disagree as it allows people like myself to understand both setups better.we all have our different opinions...but real world " tried and true testing on our trucks...and i say our trucks because hey guess what...that's what we drive st/ty's" outweighs any theory or written down on paper this should work better crap. true world results and testing is what matters.
i apploud james and bvm for making their stand about a/l...hey guys prove that a2l is better/ cheaper and more efficient via true world testing on our application and show us what you come up with. i'd love to see a side by side comparison.
based on availability, cost, and proven results a/a is the best setup for our trucks @ this moment. partially because of cost...most guys complain about 1200.00 for an a2a setup most less all the extra cost and componets needed to run a/l....
in my opinion there would have to be one heck of a diff in iat temps and consistency for me to spend an xtra grand or so for the a/l....
QUICK STORM
B.A.M.F. BMW Tech
Re: a2a OR w2a
so buy the mccoy a/a i have. i'll give you the chris kieth discount
so buy the mccoy a/a i have. i'll give you the chris kieth discount
Black Knight
I Glow Therefore I am
Re: a2a OR w2a
Very well said Chris, and it's situations like this in which healthy compition has 2 groups fighting to prove that their system is better it makes you think outside the box to beat the other guy. Developing new ideas and technology that in the end make all of our trucks perform better.
This whole time though we have been talking A2A and W2A differences it appears that we're talking strickly about drag racing, but I want a all around truck drag race, daily driven, auto cross, and the ability to jump in my truck and drive 1,000 or even more miles without worring about the water temp or do I need more ice. With that being stated I still would hold my ground that A2A is the way to go.
You know what though guys, prove me wrong, PLEASE, I would love for you to show me actual data that in my situation you can make a W2A setup preform better. I want my truck to perform as good as possible and if that means you create a setup for our trucks that way out performs A2A I would be more then happy to revert back. It's going to have to make a big differnce for me to change though, 1-2 degree's cooler isn't gonna be near enough for the lack of maintance issue.
Very well said Chris, and it's situations like this in which healthy compition has 2 groups fighting to prove that their system is better it makes you think outside the box to beat the other guy. Developing new ideas and technology that in the end make all of our trucks perform better.
This whole time though we have been talking A2A and W2A differences it appears that we're talking strickly about drag racing, but I want a all around truck drag race, daily driven, auto cross, and the ability to jump in my truck and drive 1,000 or even more miles without worring about the water temp or do I need more ice. With that being stated I still would hold my ground that A2A is the way to go.
You know what though guys, prove me wrong, PLEASE, I would love for you to show me actual data that in my situation you can make a W2A setup preform better. I want my truck to perform as good as possible and if that means you create a setup for our trucks that way out performs A2A I would be more then happy to revert back. It's going to have to make a big differnce for me to change though, 1-2 degree's cooler isn't gonna be near enough for the lack of maintance issue.
ghettosled
SYTY SUPERSTORE
Re: a2a OR w2a
The only reason i bothered to post in this thread is b/c i knew exactly what you were after. Something that will work for everything.. Street, Track, Daily Driver, etc.
The A/A does exactly that. The A/L works better for the track, IF you plumb cool fresh water or ice into it. Sure there are ways to make anything perform good, and meet your expectations, but the only point i am trying to make is that in my expirience, in a syty application the a/a is always favored not just by me because i sell it, but everyone else who has ever replaced the a/l system with a Dequick, KB, RPM, McCoy, Custom, etc. Thats why I said to ask ONLY those who have swapped to A/A and get their opinion, otherwise you are just asking for opinions of people who dont have any basis on their claims.
James as for your intercooler: I'm only trying to help you. You mentioned in your previous post that
For your own knowledge go here:
http://www.turboneticsinc.com/ic_liquidtoair.htm
Lets just say you wanted to make 1000hp. And the turbo you are using flows 1500cfm (you'll probably need more). It will probably take 30psi (as calculated) to do it.. So figure you use 45 degree ice water, your outlet temps will be 137 degrees. Not all that great. Use 110 degree water (would be excellent with an aux cooler setup like you guys arerefering to) and your outlet temps are 182 degrees. Is that supposed to be good? Now if you are using a 700cfm turbo, yes it works bad ass, but you aint making no 1000hp with a 700cfm turbo.
So back to my point, that intercooler pictured will support 900hp effiently at best using ice water! This is with an intake temp of approx 80 degrees at the end of a run. Sure if you think 150 degree intake temps are suitable then it will work to 1000+ like Jonny said. I'm confused to how you were told 1000-1100 and then you are claiming 1200+. I also dont know how you went from modifying one intercooler, to pretty much replacing every part that makes up the intercooler.
Contrary to what you guys are posting, I am basing my knowledge SOLEY on hands on expirience, not what i read or hear. I tell the same thing to people when they call and order turbos. I tell em what it takes to run 10s and then they ask why vendor "x" sells a PT51 rated at 585hp which is all it takes to run 10s, yet i am trying to sell them on a much bigger turbo. My answer is b/c i dont want you calling me back in a week wanted a refund because your truck only went 11.50s. So all i'm trying to say is you can listen to a salesman or piece of paper or someone who is out there doing it.
Black Knight said:
The only reason i bothered to post in this thread is b/c i knew exactly what you were after. Something that will work for everything.. Street, Track, Daily Driver, etc.
The A/A does exactly that. The A/L works better for the track, IF you plumb cool fresh water or ice into it. Sure there are ways to make anything perform good, and meet your expectations, but the only point i am trying to make is that in my expirience, in a syty application the a/a is always favored not just by me because i sell it, but everyone else who has ever replaced the a/l system with a Dequick, KB, RPM, McCoy, Custom, etc. Thats why I said to ask ONLY those who have swapped to A/A and get their opinion, otherwise you are just asking for opinions of people who dont have any basis on their claims.
James as for your intercooler: I'm only trying to help you. You mentioned in your previous post that
You mention nothing about changing cores, so bottom line your endtanks and water fittings arent going to make it any more efficient. You can listen to a salesman all you want, or someone who is trying to help educate you, based on their hands on racing expirience with this intercooler.
For your own knowledge go here:
http://www.turboneticsinc.com/ic_liquidtoair.htm
Lets just say you wanted to make 1000hp. And the turbo you are using flows 1500cfm (you'll probably need more). It will probably take 30psi (as calculated) to do it.. So figure you use 45 degree ice water, your outlet temps will be 137 degrees. Not all that great. Use 110 degree water (would be excellent with an aux cooler setup like you guys arerefering to) and your outlet temps are 182 degrees. Is that supposed to be good? Now if you are using a 700cfm turbo, yes it works bad ass, but you aint making no 1000hp with a 700cfm turbo.
So back to my point, that intercooler pictured will support 900hp effiently at best using ice water! This is with an intake temp of approx 80 degrees at the end of a run. Sure if you think 150 degree intake temps are suitable then it will work to 1000+ like Jonny said. I'm confused to how you were told 1000-1100 and then you are claiming 1200+. I also dont know how you went from modifying one intercooler, to pretty much replacing every part that makes up the intercooler.
Contrary to what you guys are posting, I am basing my knowledge SOLEY on hands on expirience, not what i read or hear. I tell the same thing to people when they call and order turbos. I tell em what it takes to run 10s and then they ask why vendor "x" sells a PT51 rated at 585hp which is all it takes to run 10s, yet i am trying to sell them on a much bigger turbo. My answer is b/c i dont want you calling me back in a week wanted a refund because your truck only went 11.50s. So all i'm trying to say is you can listen to a salesman or piece of paper or someone who is out there doing it.
Re: a2a OR w2a
So all i'm trying to say is you can listen to a salesman or piece of paper or someone who is out there doing it.
very well spoken.....my point exactly :tup: :tup:
So all i'm trying to say is you can listen to a salesman or piece of paper or someone who is out there doing it.
very well spoken.....my point exactly :tup: :tup:
James Thomas
"NO CLASS"
Re: a2a OR w2a
No problem Mike and fresh opinion's / help are all ways welcome :tup: . We are all human with different points of view, experience and expertise. Some times looking from the "inside looking out" you miss things. The view from the "outside looking in" can turn up new things.
Please read my follow up post regarding you comment above as to:
Quote[ You mention nothing about changing cores, so bottom line your endtanks and water fittings arent going to make it any more efficient. You can listen to a salesman all you want, or someone who is trying to help educate you, based on their hands on racing expirience with this intercooler. ] Quote
I said in the folloing post "Yep that was then. Like I said, old pic though. Core is larger now, tank's, fittings, in's & out's are way different. Don't know where the 900 Hp number came from though. The original "twin core" configuration is higher than that and this was when it originaly was Nick Steffens I/C at that time in 03' or so. He sold it to Anthony and I bought it from him several month's ago. Here was Jonny's original e-mail to me:"
and: Quote [ I'm confused to how you were told 1000-1100 and then you are claiming 1200+. I also dont know how you went from modifying one intercooler, to pretty much replacing every part that makes up the intercooler. ]Quote
I said in the same post: "I am the current owner of this I/C and modification or new fabrication is acceptable either U.S or Japan due to out Pacific location, which ever is most expedient. If modified, the I/C sould be flow / pressure and T/D tested then all tanks removed for further modifications of thermal transfer and Ionized vapor coatings by us upon return.
Also: "as far as thermal dynamic properties etc. and with out teaching engineering 101, trust me water is more efficent than air. I will be trying a Mil spec heat exchange fluid in the new custom A2W install and should (stress should) be much better than water. I will post the results after I can back it up.
Just to make sure we are clear, I have several I/C's. The one purchased from Anthony that used to belong to Nick Steffens has been modded for larger coolant lines and better total coolant flow along with changes to the inlet & out size, configuration and design (we will call it I/C no.1) that will be used on my driver Ty (around 800 H.P. I hope?). The second and third unit's are new fab's based on the original design with a lot of changes and dont really even compare to the original because it was determined that the original would not be able to handle what I have in mind. Please don't mis-understand me, I never said the pictured core would suport 1000+ hp, Mr. Wang did. I agree with you all the way, that I/C will be great for 800 or less HP and that is why it will be used on the driver Ty. I had quite a discussion with Anthony about this before I decided to buy it from him and delayed almost three months while I did my research because of it. The new units are a different design for higher HP and Spearco was not involved with that. Sorry my bad, I did leave a few in beteween details out and so I see the window for confusion.
As for sales men? I shoot every third one and the second one just left :rotf: . No seriously I know a lot of things look good on paper/C.A.D. or in ad's and the "hype" but don't do all that great in actual use (or worse!). I have done A2W and A2A at the track and on the street (for several years) with the same vehicle with no other changes and I am just commenting from my years of experience based on that, nothing more or less.
Doc's I/C is/was very simular to my two core unit and he ran low 10's, it's very simular to mine in size, much smaller than than A2A and eaiser to mount / place (for my Ty anyway), that along with my past experience is why I said what I have said. Our stock O.E.M. system leave a lot and I do mean a LOT to be desired. So much so that damn near any change to it is better.
Mike you have a good product, many happy customers and good running vehicles for an out of the box set up and for the fella that wants to just bolt on and go, I agree with you 100%. I am just going out side the box is all and see a better way for me, that's it and I do stress for me. I am not average when it comes to cars, can't leave anything or well enough alone. Some times it works better, some time about the same, sometimes not as well :roll: and sometimes great. The last is what I'm shooting for, in town daily stop and go red light to red light driving. We have no highways here on the Island and I think A2W will be better and more constant for that. On the highway A2A is great but how often does the average guy "hit the road? Once a week, once or twice a month? I donno but I NEVER do. I think most daily drivers are mostly city driving with a little expressway thrown in but I could be wrong, hell won't be the first or the last time i'm sure of it.
I have had alot of time available lately and have been able to move forward on the "Twin Ty's" here in the last month but I have a lot of end of the year business in Japan, China and the P.I. I will be leaving Tues. morning and be gone for a grand total of about three weeks but when I return I will hopfully be able to post some #'s for the driver Ty if (cross my fingers) there are no other hick up's and the boys in the shop finish every thing on the list by the time I return. We are ready to fire the motor now so wish me luck.
Mike, no friction and your info and opinions are appericated. Like I said you have a good product and you do have more "intimate" knowledge :lol: of the SyTy than I do. I just saw good numbers on my other rides and think they will apply here, I hope.
______________
James
ghettosled said:
No problem Mike and fresh opinion's / help are all ways welcome :tup: . We are all human with different points of view, experience and expertise. Some times looking from the "inside looking out" you miss things. The view from the "outside looking in" can turn up new things.
Please read my follow up post regarding you comment above as to:
Quote[ You mention nothing about changing cores, so bottom line your endtanks and water fittings arent going to make it any more efficient. You can listen to a salesman all you want, or someone who is trying to help educate you, based on their hands on racing expirience with this intercooler. ] Quote
I said in the folloing post "Yep that was then. Like I said, old pic though. Core is larger now, tank's, fittings, in's & out's are way different. Don't know where the 900 Hp number came from though. The original "twin core" configuration is higher than that and this was when it originaly was Nick Steffens I/C at that time in 03' or so. He sold it to Anthony and I bought it from him several month's ago. Here was Jonny's original e-mail to me:"
and: Quote [ I'm confused to how you were told 1000-1100 and then you are claiming 1200+. I also dont know how you went from modifying one intercooler, to pretty much replacing every part that makes up the intercooler. ]Quote
I said in the same post: "I am the current owner of this I/C and modification or new fabrication is acceptable either U.S or Japan due to out Pacific location, which ever is most expedient. If modified, the I/C sould be flow / pressure and T/D tested then all tanks removed for further modifications of thermal transfer and Ionized vapor coatings by us upon return.
Also: "as far as thermal dynamic properties etc. and with out teaching engineering 101, trust me water is more efficent than air. I will be trying a Mil spec heat exchange fluid in the new custom A2W install and should (stress should) be much better than water. I will post the results after I can back it up.
Just to make sure we are clear, I have several I/C's. The one purchased from Anthony that used to belong to Nick Steffens has been modded for larger coolant lines and better total coolant flow along with changes to the inlet & out size, configuration and design (we will call it I/C no.1) that will be used on my driver Ty (around 800 H.P. I hope?). The second and third unit's are new fab's based on the original design with a lot of changes and dont really even compare to the original because it was determined that the original would not be able to handle what I have in mind. Please don't mis-understand me, I never said the pictured core would suport 1000+ hp, Mr. Wang did. I agree with you all the way, that I/C will be great for 800 or less HP and that is why it will be used on the driver Ty. I had quite a discussion with Anthony about this before I decided to buy it from him and delayed almost three months while I did my research because of it. The new units are a different design for higher HP and Spearco was not involved with that. Sorry my bad, I did leave a few in beteween details out and so I see the window for confusion.
As for sales men? I shoot every third one and the second one just left :rotf: . No seriously I know a lot of things look good on paper/C.A.D. or in ad's and the "hype" but don't do all that great in actual use (or worse!). I have done A2W and A2A at the track and on the street (for several years) with the same vehicle with no other changes and I am just commenting from my years of experience based on that, nothing more or less.
Doc's I/C is/was very simular to my two core unit and he ran low 10's, it's very simular to mine in size, much smaller than than A2A and eaiser to mount / place (for my Ty anyway), that along with my past experience is why I said what I have said. Our stock O.E.M. system leave a lot and I do mean a LOT to be desired. So much so that damn near any change to it is better.
Mike you have a good product, many happy customers and good running vehicles for an out of the box set up and for the fella that wants to just bolt on and go, I agree with you 100%. I am just going out side the box is all and see a better way for me, that's it and I do stress for me. I am not average when it comes to cars, can't leave anything or well enough alone. Some times it works better, some time about the same, sometimes not as well :roll: and sometimes great. The last is what I'm shooting for, in town daily stop and go red light to red light driving. We have no highways here on the Island and I think A2W will be better and more constant for that. On the highway A2A is great but how often does the average guy "hit the road? Once a week, once or twice a month? I donno but I NEVER do. I think most daily drivers are mostly city driving with a little expressway thrown in but I could be wrong, hell won't be the first or the last time i'm sure of it.
I have had alot of time available lately and have been able to move forward on the "Twin Ty's" here in the last month but I have a lot of end of the year business in Japan, China and the P.I. I will be leaving Tues. morning and be gone for a grand total of about three weeks but when I return I will hopfully be able to post some #'s for the driver Ty if (cross my fingers) there are no other hick up's and the boys in the shop finish every thing on the list by the time I return. We are ready to fire the motor now so wish me luck.
Mike, no friction and your info and opinions are appericated. Like I said you have a good product and you do have more "intimate" knowledge :lol: of the SyTy than I do. I just saw good numbers on my other rides and think they will apply here, I hope.
______________
James