a2a OR w2a

sy2675

He Saved the Pimp'n Game!
sINCE THE DEER TOOK OUT THE WHOLE FRONT OF MY TRUCK, and before i go to putting it back together again, should i ditch the w2a setup and go A2A while everything is apart? i have to replace the IC pump and aux heat exchanger anyway,

Costs?

Pro's vs Cons?

Help!!!!


Thanks,

Rich
 

Black Knight

I Glow Therefore I am
Re: a2a OR w2a

Cost 1,000 - 1,500, if you don't resell your A2W unit and recoupe some cash.

Pro's no maintance, more consistant, if it's for a daily driver and not just a drag truck this is better.

Con's under the right conditions you can make a A2W setup cooler then A2A. Water can make temp's below ambiant.

Go A2A and never look back, IMO
 
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Flyin Ryan

hated cuz he drives fords
Re: a2a OR w2a

go a2a

simply to install/remove
more room
cleaner looking
less restriction
less weight
increases bling factor when hood is open
 

Black Knight

I Glow Therefore I am
Re: a2a OR w2a

I agree with you Ryan on everything but the restriction factor. I can't imagine our stock setup would have any more of a restriction then a A2A setup. If you look at the distance the air has to flow, you really think the stock setup only having to about 2 feet from turbo to T/B with only 2 minimal bends is more restrictive then a A2A setup with a guess of 10 feet of piping and cooler with anywhere between 4-6 bends? I would venture to guess the A2A is more restrictive and way more of a pressure loss.
 

Flyin Ryan

hated cuz he drives fords
Re: a2a OR w2a

Black Knight said:
I agree with you Ryan on everything but the restriction factor. I can't imagine our stock setup would have any more of a restriction then a A2A setup. If you look at the distance the air has to flow, you really think the stock setup only having to about 2 feet from turbo to T/B with only 2 minimal bends is more restrictive then a A2A setup with a guess of 10 feet of piping and cooler with anywhere between 4-6 bends? I would venture to guess the A2A is more restrictive and way more of a pressure loss.

I totally agree with what your saying but when I mentioned "less restriction" I was thinking of kits like the RPM and KB that don't use crazy amounts of tubing or tons of 90 degree bends and are 3inch piping insize instead of that tiny 2inch inlet on the stock upper ic core :)
 

BVM

Stock '04 GTO
Re: a2a OR w2a

If you are doing anything but road course water to air is the only way to go.

Water to Air
Water is 5 times more efficient than air for heat transfer.
Super short piping = faster throttle response.
Its already there... use it with the best heat exchanger you can buy.
No added tuning required.

Air to Air
Bling?
Great for endurance style racing since your cooling medium is unlimited
Less weight than W2A.
Less complex than W2A
No added lag if proper size piping, core and TUNING is used.

I think its funny, W2A guys want to go A2A, A2A guys want to go W2A.
 

sy2675

He Saved the Pimp'n Game!
Re: a2a OR w2a

BVM said:
If you are doing anything but road course water to air is the only way to go.

Water to Air
Water is 5 times more efficient than air for heat transfer.
Super short piping = faster throttle response.
Its already there... use it with the best heat exchanger you can buy.
No added tuning required.

Air to Air
Bling?
Great for endurance style racing since your cooling medium is unlimited
Less weight than W2A.
Less complex than W2A
No added lag if proper size piping, core and TUNING is used.

I think its funny, W2A guys want to go A2A, A2A guys want to go W2A.

Only reason i am thinking of changing is because i hit a deer and i would have to replace the heat exchangers and the pump anyway, just thought if it is better than now is the time.
 

James Thomas

"NO CLASS"
Re: a2a OR w2a

BVM is pretty close to the mark on his post above. For stop & go or daily driving and drag racing, well let me put it to like this. All thing being equal an A2W will always beat a simular A2A and a smaller A2W can be much more effective than a larger A2A. On a road course or the interstate the A2A starts to have advantages and also has a slight maintenance edge on the street.

Comes down to the age old hot rod question. What do you wanna do with it, and what do you want it to do? I am A2W and there is no way I would go A2A for my driver / drag set up :2cents: .

______________
James
 

#2875

built, not bought
Re: a2a OR w2a

i made a lower exchanger from a scirocco radiator and put it under the bed with the dual flexalite fans for scirocco radiators. i also installed a new pump that smokes the johnson pump:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?ItemId=1611772746

the upper intercooler can easily be modified to have a bigger inlet (i did this as well). my upper is cool to the touch all of the time. i am pretty sure that the best a2a on the planet wouldn't touch my setup as far as IAT.

the radiator was free because i hook up the local speed shop, the fans came from a board member, the upper mods were free, the pump was $150 and i got about $200 back from selling my old lower exchanger and johnson pump.

i vote water !!!!!!!!!

also, there is no way in hell i would pay $1,500 for an a2a setup you guys are friggin' nuts.
 

Black Knight

I Glow Therefore I am
Re: a2a OR w2a

BVM said:
If you are doing anything but road course water to air is the only way to go.

Water to Air
Water is 5 times more efficient than air for heat transfer.
Super short piping = faster throttle response.
Its already there... use it with the best heat exchanger you can buy.
No added tuning required.

Air to Air
Bling?
Great for endurance style racing since your cooling medium is unlimited
Less weight than W2A.
Less complex than W2A
No added lag if proper size piping, core and TUNING is used.

I think its funny, W2A guys want to go A2A, A2A guys want to go W2A.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match with you, but do you have any data to support your "Water is 5 times more efficient than air for heat transfer" statement. I've just never read anything that claimed a number that high.

I just hate all the maintance issue's with the A2W, always trying to get the air out of the system and I'm sure a bigger heat exchanger would make a difference but I'm skeptical it can help that much. My I/C never stays cold, I can just drive 20-30 miles to town and the water will be warm.

It would be nice to know actual IAC numbers from someone who has like Waller's upper and a larger CCHE to see what the numbers are in real life.
 

jwaller

Evil Genius/SyTy Guru
Re: a2a OR w2a

if you want to know what my IC's temps are ask michael hood. he had one for quite a while and to my knowledge loved it. I've installed several of them and have always noticed a improvment in performance. The biggest differance that I have seen in the real world is the night and day differance in spoolup. you just cannot beat the stock system for spoolup. the volume of the 2 types of systems cannot be overlooked. it simply takes longer to fill the A2A with boost than it does a small box mounted above the valve cover.

A2W can be made move efficient than A2A but most ppl wont ever see this bc they dont do all the things they need to for it to work. with my IC to work it's best you also need the larger pump and lower exchanger. with all 3 it's great thing.

as far as maintenance goes there really is none. make sure it's full of water about once a week and thats it. with an A2A you have a much lager chance of blowing a tube or clamp off somewhere as there are at a minimun of 4 clamps as compared to 2 with a2a. and with some a2a systems there can be as many as 10 or more clamps to worry about and joints that will leak.

if you ever test a clamped joint you wil find that even with Tbolts that joint will leak to a certain degree. to truely seal a joint you have to use 2 tbolts 190deg apart from each other and lots of time that just isnt possible.
 

James Thomas

"NO CLASS"
Re: a2a OR w2a

If nothing else, I agree with that and as far as thermal dynamic properties etc. and with out teaching engineering 101, trust me water is more efficent than air. I will be trying a Mil spec heat exchange fluid in the new custom A2W install and should (stress should) be much better than water. I will post the results after I can back it up. A2W and Alky can not be beat.

____________
James
 

James Thomas

"NO CLASS"
Re: a2a OR w2a

#2875 said:
i made a lower exchanger from a scirocco radiator and put it under the bed with the dual flexalite fans for scirocco radiators. i also installed a new pump that smokes the johnson pump:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?ItemId=1611772746

the upper intercooler can easily be modified to have a bigger inlet (i did this as well). my upper is cool to the touch all of the time. i am pretty sure that the best a2a on the planet wouldn't touch my setup as far as IAT.

the radiator was free because i hook up the local speed shop, the fans came from a board member, the upper mods were free, the pump was $150 and i got about $200 back from selling my old lower exchanger and johnson pump.

i vote water !!!!!!!!!

also, there is no way in hell i would pay $1,500 for an a2a setup you guys are friggin' nuts.



Damn! This pump rocks, unless I can find better I'm going with this too. Thanks for sharing :tup: !

________________
James
 

Black Knight

I Glow Therefore I am
Re: a2a OR w2a

OK, so how many of our really fast trucks ( anything 11.00's and faster ) are still running A2W, I could be way wrong but I didn't think very many were?

If most are running A2W then I will understand your thinking, but if most are not, then why are they not??
 

BVM

Stock '04 GTO
Re: a2a OR w2a

No offense taken. I love to work out the brain cells! I am going to suggest you do some research. There are several books you can read and or information on several web sites.

Using my own personal experience, and that of my ol' boss, Gareth Howell (British Touring car guy). We can see it consistently on the engine dyno. Gareth likes to use the customers complete intake, exhaust and intercooling set up when tuning. The dyno cell also has its own chargecooling tank. We see more consistent temps as well as lower IAT's. Hands down water/air is the way to go. Water to air plus chemical intercooling... now we are talking! Now that I have touched on actual real world experience, I am going to break out some technical info I found with a quick search.

Water has a much higher specific heat value than air. The 'specific heat value' figure shows how much energy a substance can absorb for each degree temp it rises by. A substance good at absorbing energy has a high specific heat value, while one that gets hot quickly has a low specific heat. Something with a high specific heat value can obviously absorb (and then later get rid of) lots of energy - good for cooling down the air. Air has a specific heat value of 1.01 (at a constant pressure), while the figure for water is 4.18. In other words, for each increase in temp by one degree, the same mass of water can absorb some four times more energy than air. Or, there can be vastly less flow of water than air to get the same job done. Incidentally, note that pure water is best - its specific heat value is actually degraded by 6 per cent when 23 per cent anti-freeze is added! Other commonly-available fluids don't even come close to water's specific heat value.
The high specific heat value of water has a real advantage in its heat sinking affect. An air/water heat exchanger designed so that it has a reasonable volume of water within it can absorb a great deal of heat during a boost spike. Even before the water pump has a chance to transfer in cool water, the heat exchanger has absorbed considerable heat from the intake airstream. It's this characteristic that makes a water/air intercooling system as efficient in normal urban driving with the pump stopped as it is with it running! To explain, the water in the heat exchanger absorbs the heat from the boosted air, feeding it back into the airstream once the car is off boost and the intake air is cooler. I am not suggesting that you don't worry about fitting a water pump, but it is a reminder that in normal driving the intercooler works in a quite different way to how it needs to perform during sustained full throttle. However, the downside of this is once the water in the system has got hot (for example, after you've been driving and then parked for a while), it takes some time for the water to cool down once you again drive off.

Hope this helps,
Steven
 
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jwaller

Evil Genius/SyTy Guru
Re: a2a OR w2a

Black Knight said:
OK, so how many of our really fast trucks ( anything 11.00's and faster ) are still running A2W, I could be way wrong but I didn't think very many were?

If most are running A2W then I will understand your thinking, but if most are not, then why are they not??

not sure how many of the fast trucks on here are running w2A(other than the hoovers) but I assure you thats bc nobody here wants to spend the $ on a system that is large enough to do just that.

For arguments sake look at the guys running in the NMCA(running in the mid 7's and 180+mph) and see how many of them are using A2A. I cant find any. all the fast cars there are using W2A. reason being that with a properly sized system W2A is better. ask nolan on here, he was going to do a W2A system and not sure but I think he gave up on the entire build.

I can also assure you that when I have my truck in it's final stage of build it will be W2A.
 

Black Knight

I Glow Therefore I am
Re: a2a OR w2a

First, thanx Steven for putting up that information. I have done some research on this and understand that water does absorb heat better then air, but it seemed to me that your "5 times" statement was exaggerated from anything I had ever read. I have never doen any research on this myself so I have nothing to go off of but what I can read, including your post here. Being that you have done research on this I will definitely take what you wrote into consideration. I've also read that A2A gives you more consistant temps then W2A. You stated the opposite, so you see for someone like me who can't test all the equipment and situations and can only go off what I read, I have to do my best to filter out the propaganda and the BS to make the most educated decision possible.

Most of everything I've ever read stated that A2A was optimal under most conditions, I guess the guys that support those theories have way more advertising then the ones who support W2A, because their statements are few and far between.
 

#2875

built, not bought
Re: a2a OR w2a

James Thomas said:
Damn! This pump rocks, unless I can find better I'm going with this too. Thanks for sharing :tup: !
________________
James


no problem. i have been meaning to do a writeup with pics on my system for a while now. i have a few other tricks that i will share with you fellas. i am making a custom w2a intercooler and i'm about 50% done... baby on the way, no time, blah, blah.

to black knight: it has been my experience with the fast honda cars (9 seconds or lower, no way it would pass for a street car) that ALL these guys use w2a. they usually have no heat exchanger but rather a cooler filled with ice.
 

denny

Active member
Re: a2a OR w2a

" water can absorb some four times more energy than air"

lets say I am driving 40mph, the amount air hitting the a2a would be 4 times the water voume in w2a, now wouldn't you say they even each other out?
 
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