20G Turbo

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: 20G Turbo

So far,
I have run 12.0 spinning the tires w/a 1.68 60' ultra lean @ 13.6 A/F ratio,was running out of injector (stock injectors) & my Aquamist stopped working during the run. Not just making excuses, just stating facts.

I hate to tell you this because I am sure I know what is going to follow but, you got lucky. How many other people have really done that with ease? I have always found your results impressive but lets face it, the average Joe with a 20g isn't going to make that kind of progress. What works for some doesn't always work for others.

It's like Ry, he ran 12.9 with a stock motor Syclone and a 20g up here at altitude. He didn't really do a whole to get it there either. I had to bust my ass to get mine to run 13.5. And we all know running lean isn't always the best option. In my Ty, anything leaner than 12.2 (when it was mostly stock) and I would get over 8* of KR. Though some guys may have luck with that, its not a direction I would encourage anyone to take.

 

[killa66cam]

Re: 20G Turbo

So far,
I have run 12.0 spinning the tires w/a 1.68 60' ultra lean @ 13.6 A/F ratio,was running out of injector (stock injectors) & my Aquamist stopped working during the run. Not just making excuses, just stating facts.

Nice...looks like some high 11's are in your future!

I hate to tell you this because I am sure I know what is going to follow but, you got lucky. How many other people have really done that with ease? I have always found your results impressive but lets face it, the average Joe with a 20g isn't going to make that kind of progress. What works for some doesn't always work for others.

It's like Ry, he ran 12.9 with a stock motor Syclone and a 20g up here at altitude. He didn't really do a whole to get it there either. I had to bust my ass to get mine to run 13.5. And we all know running lean isn't always the best option. In my Ty, anything leaner than 12.2 (when it was mostly stock) and I would get over 8* of KR. Though some guys may have luck with that, its not a direction I would encourage anyone to take.

I don't have any illusions about what I am going to be able to do in my Ty. I won't know anything until I try it and see how it does on my vehicle. Just wanting to see what others have been able to achieve, and give me some sort of goal...even if somewhat unrealistic. And I'm not too suprised that Ry's Sy was a lil over half a second faster than your Ty...given the weight difference of the two. Not saying that is the only difference, but in general, Sy's seem about a half second faster than the Ty's. Thanks for the info.

Cam

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: 20G Turbo

Yeah believe me when I tell you this, I am not trying to take away anything from Rick what so ever, just seems to me some guys pull it off and most don't. Point was, some guys do it with ease and what I call "old school tricks". I would be too afraid to do what some of these other guys do. If you want good reliable power that wont destroy your truck once a year, the 20g will suit you well weather you get the 10cm 14cm or the one with the 60-1 wheel in it. It is a great all around turbo and IMO should have came stock on SYTY's.

 

[leadfoot]

Re: 20G Turbo

$1,200 seems a bit high to me...since you can buy them new for around $800. Just my observation.

Cam

Me too -Where have you seen them for $800?

 

[It's just a six]

Re: 20G Turbo

I hate to tell you this because I am sure I know what is going to follow but, you got lucky. How many other people have really done that with ease? I have always found your results impressive but lets face it, the average Joe with a 20g isn't going to make that kind of progress. What works for some doesn't always work for others. .

I would think luck has nothing to do w/how my Sy runs, I would like to think I had something to do with running the way it does. Afterall, I just threw parts @ it & I lucked out,, lucky me.
I believe if you watch your A/F ratios,knocking, mess with your timing (rotate dissy) run a decent chip, make sure your intake temps are under control,nice cold air intake, good flowing exhaust. etc, it was not any magic going on here, just good old school ghetto tuning.

My Sy used to run in the mid14's @ 3000+ altitude track when I first got it.

I am just guessing that the average Joe usually adds on a bunch of things all @ once & then trys to figure out why it's slower, that is very,very hard to troubleshoot what exactly made it slower.

Every little thing I have done, I test it,to see if it faster, one thing @ a time for the most part.
I think one time & did change 3 things @ the same time, but it was not big things I added an Aquamist 1S system, a 60-1 wheel to the 20G turbo cant remember the last thing I did, anyways, most people here thought my Sy was going to run slower, it did not run slower it went faster. I tried each mod out on the street, adjusted the timing, raise the fuel pressure to get the correct A/F ratio for W.O.T. (all testing done before I went to a track) the mixture was not perfect everywhere else, just @ W.O.T., but since my Aqaumist system stopped working @ the track, it was dangeriously lean 13.6, good thing I use a J&S safegaurd that saved my engine even though it was ultra lean.

And that's the last time I went to a track & ran 12.0 My MPH was only 108, because it was way lean.

I am thinking,( could be wrong ) but, the average Joe will add parts then see how it works @ the track, not before hand. Maybe?

I guess you could call it luck, but I have owned my Sy since 1998 & if you are thinking my Sy has progressed way too fast in that amount of time to work on from1998-2010 to run 12.0 I am glad you think it's luck ,because by this time I would have hoped to be in the 11's, but having a 4 year old & 6 year old kids now, you can see why I have not progressed much in the last 6 years, they are a handful & takes up all my time & $$$.

My Sy was called "The chosen one" (one person with a lot of mods done & I thought was slow for the mods done was a slow, 13.6 ET,red modded ATR turbo, headers,exhaust system,external wastegate, Conley (SP) intercooled Ty said that ) I thought that was funny.:rotf: considering my Sy started off like any desent Sy running 14's @ LACR track , maybe if I had clicked off some mid 13's first off running stock there then I would have thought, hey, maybe my Sy is the chosen one.

Back to the turbo, a 20G turbo is a good bolt on turbo, it should have come from the factory that way,,,,but,,,, w/a 10 CM turbine housing.:tup: Peace!

 

[killa66cam]

Re: 20G Turbo

Me too -Where have you seen them for $800?

I would buy one of these if I was looking for a 20G turbo. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290544702486&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

The 12 CM housing would be better than a 14 Cm w/a stock torque converter.

Plus you can pick how stiff an actuator you want.:2cents:

I'm going by the one posted on the first page of this thread. Seems like a waste of $400 if this one, linked above, is going to do the same thing as one that is rebuilt.

Cam

 

[Darin]

Re: 20G Turbo

I'm not pointing out problems, but just making sure you're aware of a few things:

The turbo on EBAY isn't a Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Unit, it's a Kinugawa, a reproduction. I'm sure it's a quality piece, but to each their own. Also, the turbine wheel is the same as a stock unit (TD06), whereas a "normal" 20G uses a TD06H turbine wheel, it's the next step up. This will cause more lag, but ultimately the turbine wheel will cause a restriction further down the road.

My advice: Get a 20G with a TD06H turbine wheel, then a 10 or 12cm housing. Or, live with the 14cm until you get the modifications to support it a little better. Campbell Auto (now Moretto Motorsports, I think) built a custom 14cm TD06H 20G with a 61mm (GT35?) comp wheel that did something like 800ft/lbs of torque with L35 heads, all bolt on.

Something to consider for the future.

 

[killa66cam]

Re: 20G Turbo

I'm not pointing out problems, but just making sure you're aware of a few things:

The turbo on EBAY isn't a Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Unit, it's a Kinugawa, a reproduction. I'm sure it's a quality piece, but to each their own. Also, the turbine wheel is the same as a stock unit (TD06), whereas a "normal" 20G uses a TD06H turbine wheel, it's the next step up. This will cause more lag, but ultimately the turbine wheel will cause a restriction further down the road.

My advice: Get a 20G with a TD06H turbine wheel, then a 10 or 12cm housing. Or, live with the 14cm until you get the modifications to support it a little better. Campbell Auto (now Moretto Motorsports, I think) built a custom 14cm TD06H 20G with a 61mm (GT35?) comp wheel that did something like 800ft/lbs of torque with L35 heads, all bolt on.

Something to consider for the future.

I know that the Kinugawa turbo isn't a Mitsubishi turbo. Do you think that there is a big difference between the two?

I like the idea of the Campbell Auto turbo's torque. What was the horsepower? I was thinking of maybe upgrading to Vortec heads at some point, Edelbrock intake, and all the other stuff to support them. But that will be a long ways off...got to get started with the little stuff first.

Cam

 

[leadfoot]

Re: 20G Turbo

Give Comp Turbo a call a few guys on this site recommended them to me. They will quote you a price over the phone.

Sent them a simple e-mail asking basic questions. They never responded. :tdown:

 

[Darin]

Re: 20G Turbo

Turbo's are easy. Whatever you think you want, go a little bit bigger to grow into. Buying another turbo further down the road sucks, unless it's a huge step.

 

[It's just a six]

Re: 20G Turbo

I'm going by the one posted on the first page of this thread. Seems like a waste of $400 if this one, linked above, is going to do the same thing as one that is rebuilt.

Cam

I think this turbo is going to do what you want it to do.
Yes the turbine wheel is a standard TD06 wheel, so it is smaller than a TD06H wheel, but you are stepping up 4cm sizes on the turbine A/R which will allow the exhaust to breath better.
I cant say for sure the above statement about using the standard smaller turbine wheel is true "This will cause more lag", I have not tested my 12 CM housing w/the stock Sy turbine wheel, if anything, since the wheel is smaller & lighter than a TD06H wheel, I am thinking it should spool faster, maybe not because of less leverage of the exhaust gases pushing on the turbine wheel?

It has the hard to find & expensive parts (if they were Mitsubishi) like the 12 CM turbine housing, your choice of how much pressure you want from the wastegate actuator.

You can always upgrade later to a TD06H wheel or even a modded Garrett turbine wheel can be made to fit.
If you do upgrade later to the TD06H wheel, the 12 CM turbine housing will need to be machined to fit the larger wheel & rebalance the center section (compressor wheel & turbine wheel assy).

The choice is yours, you pick the turbo you want, good luck.:tup:

 

[Darin]

Re: 20G Turbo

The restriction is always the turbine wheel. No matter how large the housing is, it still gets fed through the turbine wheel. Yes, lighter will spool quicker, so will smaller. But you may lack what you need up top.

Turbo selection 101 for the turbine side: Choose a turbine wheel that flows what you need for your upper limit power goal, then size your housing accordingly for your response needs.

Seems to make sense to me. ?!?

 

[It's just a six]

Re: 20G Turbo

Does turbo seletion 101 talk about having exhaust restriction from a turbine housing being too small?.
So, if you have a 4 or a 6CM turbine housing that will not be a restriction?

killa66cam ,

If you choose the Ebay turbo & feel it is not flowing enoungh exhaust, you could always have the turbine wheel clipped & there are different percentages of clipping.

 

[Darin]

Re: 20G Turbo

Does turbo seletion 101 talk about having exhaust restriction from a turbine housing being too small?.
So, if you have a 4 or a 6CM turbine housing that will not be a restriction?

Hmmm, maybe I'll try to explain it differently.

Take 12" of 3" pipe, and put a 1" reducer on the end of it. Blow though it, and see how much energy it takes before you achieve a set flow out of the end. Now, take 12" of 6" pipe with the same 1" reducer on the end of it and do the same thing. The pipe is the housing, the 1" hole at the end is the Turbine wheel. See the difference? And yes, a VERY small housing will cause issues with exhaust reversion and what not. You don't need the turbo acting as an EGR valve

Clipping has it's ups and downs as well. Clipping allows exhaust energy to bypass the turbine wheel, losing efficiency. From a loss standpoint, it's better to go up a size and not lose the efficiency. But from a cost standpoint, upgrading to a larger turbine wheel is much more money. It depends on your overall power goals. Using the above scenario, increase the size of the reducer at the end of the pipe for a larger turbine wheel then repeat the test.

 

[It's just a six]

Re: 20G Turbo

Hmmm,
Ok, because I was getting confused. first you say this "The restriction is always the turbine wheel. "
Now you are saying this" a VERY small housing will cause issues with exhaust reversion and what not"
Which sounds like the small A/R on a turbine housing can be a restriction. yes. no? As I mentioned ealier.

Sounds like you are changing your mind?

Simple question, does a 14 CM turbine housing, allow the engine/exhaust to breath easier than a 6CM turbine housing?, (turbine wheels being the same.)

I have seen directly, the difference in the exhaust paths of the stock 8 CM housing, & the 14 CM housing. They are different where the exhaust is alllowed to squeeze by to get to the turbine wheel.

I do know how turbos work I just would like to have consistant explanations.

Peace:tup:

 

[Typhoon-Dennis]

Re: 20G Turbo

so, Now i read the whole thread and it sounds, that this Would be One of the best options:

TD06H with a 12 or 14cm housing at the exhaustside with a 2400-2800 Stall tc

Somebody Wansts to Build me that Turbo? LOL

 

[Darin]

Re: 20G Turbo

It all depends on how much your trying to flow through it is where the restriction occurs. Larger housing means more to fill before bottle necking at the turbine wheel. Therefore, size the housing for response needs and power goals.

So yes, I take back my statement that the turbine wheel is the only restriction. Trying to force too much exhaust through too small of a housing can cause reversion problems as well, since the turbine wheel can't flow enough through it. Less back pressure is a good thing!

Peace Back

 

[killa66cam]

Re: 20G Turbo

Thanks for all of the info...I am learning a lot!

Cam

 

[Typhoon-Dennis]

Re: 20G Turbo

Thanks for all of the info...I am learning a lot!

Cam

Same from me

 

[Typhoon-Dennis]

Re: 20G Turbo

i know its an "lowbudget-ebay-kinugawa" Turbo, but is that maybe an opinion?

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