Strong enough?

[7dhamper]

I know exactly what I want to build but don't know about the aftermarket enough but I know you guys do. I don't want full time AWD for obvious reasons, but must have 4X4 for the weather. I hate the old S-10 floor shifter setup. I love the later push button style. But I have a feeling that stock GM transfer cases, transmissions, drive axles, and probally even the differentials will break with what I want to put under the hood of the truck I plan to build. What companies should I look into to handle this:
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/sto...x?src=gglls2&gclid=CM2GzeCOs4YCFSJPPgodPWKlTQ
with this on it:
http://www.corvettegarage.com/product/aps-twin-turbo-kit-for-c6-corvette.html

 

[7dhamper]

And what about this?

And what about this?

Will that same twin turbo set up work on an LS7?
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/sto...x?src=gglls7&gclid=CObsjfmos4YCFQsqNAodtlVITw
I know this is place to ask about compression ratio and making forced air HP!

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Strong enough?

I don't want full time AWD for obvious reasons,

Besides gas mileage and maybe offroading, what reason would be such a negative over 4x4 T case? The motor you have planned will never hook up at street legal speed in 2wd.

I wouldn't use GM crate engine for twin turbo setup. The LS2 & LS7 both have cast aluminum pistons and 11:1 Compression Ratio.

 

[7dhamper]

Re: Strong enough?

This is exactly wht I love you guys! Collectively , there is more knowledge on this site then the rest of the entire web combined!
Gas mileage yes. Off roading definetly not. I plan on having only 3" of ground clearance so that will be out of the question. The main reason I want to disengage the front drive axles is for freeway driving in the nicer weather, but also for burnouts on slicks. As for hooking up in 4WD, with the right gear ratio and massive wheels I don't think it should be too much of a problem. Unlike most guys on here, I could care less about a quarter mile time slip. Driving in a strait line is just boring to me. I'm more into drifting and sloloms.
So the cast alluminum piston have to go? Cool, I'll go to Banks power for the new ones. As for not using a GM LS2 or LS7 to start? Who else makes 6 bolt main alluminum 427 small blocks that will bolt up in place of a 4.3?
The main thing I'm looking for is not the heart. I've allready choosen. It's everything else that I'm worried about breaking: Half Shafts, Transfer Case, Automatic Transmission, Differentials, ect...

 

[VermontTy]

Re: Strong enough?

The main thing I'm looking for is not the heart. I've allready choosen. It's everything else that I'm worried about breaking: Half Shafts, Transfer Case, Automatic Transmission, Differentials, ect...

:2cents: You have got a whole lot more to worry about than breaking the drivetrain. If I were you.....I would seriously reconsider the feasability of what you are looking to do.

A) Stuffing a twin turbo LSX under the hood of these trucks really isn't a 'drop in' thing. You start running out of room quickly . There are oil pan mods to be made, exhaust issues, the wiring and control of the engine itself, let alone the turbos.

B) If you are into slalom and drifting, I doubt you could hand pick a worse vehicle to start with than an S-series pickup / SUV. Piss poor handling, sloppy steering, questionable suspension geometry...the list goes on and on.

I don't mean to piss in your Corn Flakes, but seriously.....sit back for a second and think about this project as a project, not a pipe dream. If completed, you will have thousands upon thousands of dollars in a drivetrain that far exceeds the vehicle its put into. PAS probably exceeded what the platform was designed for when they built the SyTy family.

IMO....the SyTy platform is a vehicle that should be taken for what it is. No amount of money or time will ever turn these trucks into a supercar. They are 14-15 year old trucks. Don't get me wrong....I love these trucks as much as the rest of us, but there's an unmistakeable reality factor that MUST be considered as well. :2cents:

 

[cameronsclone]

Re: Strong enough?

I agree with what is said above. But, if money isn't a big issue, then I say go for it :tup:

 

[gkrcr882]

Re: Strong enough?

VermontTy nailed it. The SyTys are more or less straight-line vehicles, much like the older muscle cars and even the GNs. Not saying that they can't be autocrossed, but a body-on-frame pickup with torsion bars and leaf springs is a far cry from the fully independant unibody vehicles coming out of Japan. Personally, I would look into a mid 80's Supra with the I-6 and a stick. Great handling cars, wide powerband, and RWD. Not downing your project, but you might be disappointed in the end. There are always early-mid 90's Corvettes looking for homes, and they can be modified quite well.:2cents:

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Strong enough?

IMO....the SyTy platform is a vehicle that should be taken for what it is. No amount of money or time will ever turn these trucks into a supercar. They are 14-15 year old trucks. Don't get me wrong....I love these trucks as much as the rest of us, but there's an unmistakeable reality factor that MUST be considered as well. :2cents:

VermontTy nailed it. The SyTys are more or less straight-line vehicles, much like the older muscle cars and even the GNs. Not saying that they can't be autocrossed, but a body-on-frame pickup with torsion bars and leaf springs is a far cry from the fully independant unibody vehicles coming out of Japan.

Upto a point I agree, but they can be made to go very fast, and handle and brake decently. If you want something handle like a Corvette buy a Corvette, these are wrong truck for thsoe people. Same year Corvette's are cheaper anyways. From what I have noticed SyTY do handle better than average Muscle Cars and GN's (slightly)

Personally, I would look into a mid 80's Supra with the I-6 and a stick. Great handling cars, wide powerband, and RWD.

I had one of those, they had a power band that started at 3000 rpm (and more like 4000). My Supra wasn't a dog either, I ran some of the better times on Supra Mailing list with similliar mods. If you put too much HP into them they don't hook up and they endup doing low 13's with a ton of MPH without a lot of rear suspension work. They were decent handling, but not the best car I have driven. 4 wheel disc brakes stock, but you have to do custom setup for any better. The rear IRS had issues (clunking, weak) and they had a lot unadjustable toe. Not too mention almost no aftermarket support, and expensive Toyota Parts. Also that was 10 years ago when I had mine, I am sure they also are facing discontinued parts now.

 

[7dhamper]

Re: Strong enough?

I never said I planned on puting and S-10 body on the frame. I'm starting with the 4X4 truck frame because all of the fron end lowering componets (coil over kits, upper and lower control arms, ect...) have allready been designed and manufactured. And also beacause it has a true frame that can easily be boxed in. As for the rear end I want independent as you can see in my other recent post. I'm just asking who to go to for stronger than factory components for the drivetrain if I plan on having 600HP and don't wanna break parts every week. I figured you guys would be the best to ask. I don't believe there is a better platform to start with but I could be wrong?

 

[7dhamper]

Re: Strong enough?

P.S I hate unibodies with a passion. I just think of Stone Cold crushing cans when I see Hondas zipping around.

 

[Windedv6]

Re: Strong enough?

If you want to go custom several companies will set you up...this is for street/strip but there are other chassis setups as well...

John

 

[chelo]

Re: Strong enough?

Ivanko has a nice autocross setup. look at this one
Or you can see the front coil over he has. Rpm and turbotime also offer coilovers.
I for example am not a person to go to the drag strip often. I actually grew up going to the road course. Little by little i'm improving on the way much truck performs in handling.
I belive your biggest fear of anything that would break is the tranny. Although i do belive there is a cure to that. Look up Blake and see what he does. He can build you a killer tranny. The stock transfer case can take a good beating. Search for a few minutes and you will come up with alot of answers.

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: Strong enough?

I'd suggest doing like VermontTy says and sit back and look at the whole scope of the project.....

Using a stock S10 chassis as a starting point is probably penny wise & pound foolish. The factory frame is heavy & weak compared to a well designed & braced tube chassis. The factory front suspension has lousy geometry and is fairly heavy. Yes, you can do aftermarket parts and get away from torsion bars, but those kits aren't the greatest (they're very good solutions for the application, but they're still keeping the factory limitations of geometry and mounting points).

The LS2 & LS7 crate motors are good, but they have built in limitations. Factory pistons aren't good for boost, rods in the LS2 are questionable (at least the bolts), and nobody really knows how the LS7 intake will respond to boost. And you can build an awful lot of motor for what the LS7 goes for ($14k to $17k and then you've got to tear it apart and rebuild it for boost duty). The new Warhawk block will be able to go to 427 (and larger) with boost without any fear.

Transmission choice is pretty limited at that power range.....Very few (if any) manuals will get it done, which leaves you picking between automatics. The TH400 is stout, but only 3 speed. The 4L80E is "basically" a 4 speed version of the TH400, but its pretty heavy. The new 6L80E 6 speed would be a potential solution, but so far aftermarket controls are not available and the trans really isn't proven (strength and durability wise).

Transfer case choices are limited if you want to be able to run 4wd on pavement. All of the part time boxes are pretty much out. The Autotrak boxes are potential solutions, but you've still got to work out controls (how / when to flip the front end on, etc).

Rear diff is easy, just pick something stout enough. Ford 9" / Chevy 12 bolt / Dana 60 would all work and not break.

Front diff is not an easy thing though. The S10 front diff is pretty spindly (7.2" IFS), and has no aftermarket support (so no limited slips or the like). The 8.2" IFS in full size trucks is better, but still not great. I'd look at the 8.8" Ford IFS that the Expedition is running. That should be pretty stout (the 8.8" Ford rear is pretty stout, and the IFS version is based on that).

Just a few thoughts.....

'JustDreamin'

 

[qbnkiller]

Re: Strong enough?

John...is the truck done? I cant wait to see it! You going to Finals this year?

 

[7dhamper]

Re: Strong enough?

Front diff is not an easy thing though. The S10 front diff is pretty spindly (7.2" IFS), and has no aftermarket support (so no limited slips or the like). The 8.2" IFS in full size trucks is better, but still not great. I'd look at the 8.8" Ford IFS that the Expedition is running. That should be pretty stout (the 8.8" Ford rear is pretty stout, and the IFS version is based on that).

Just a few thoughts.....

'JustDreamin'

Expedition diffs huh? Can that set up be swapped out for 9" diffs keeping the same half safts, uppers and lowers, ect...? I really wanted to stick with GM parts on this thing but I guess Ford still has the best diffs huh? Some things never change.

 

[cdezzz]

Re: Strong enough?

Engines- I agree with everyone else, with what you are wanting to do, you are money ahead to have a motor built. I recently have a very long and very good conversation with a board member about motors and he edgeamakated me very well. So you want a 600hp motor than can be driven on the street, build that motor so it will make it on 12#'s of boost not 24...

Turbo kit- along the same lines as above, have it built. Even if you mock up the turbo/s and the intercooler and let someone else do the tubing.

Rear end- Take a look or talk to the Cobra and Viper guys, their biggest compalint is the rear end, once you get any hookup they start to break halfshafts if the make much power and convert them to solid rearends.

S-series platform- from what I read you are just wanting to use the frame and suspension and put a different body on it... Again you will be money ahead and way happier in the end to start with something else.

Theses trucks can be made into supercars, but you had be able to spend an amount that you can't imagine...

I get the impression you are in the planning stages and have a round idea what you want your final project to look like on the outside, but don't know about the guts.


One thing that I have learned over the years, if you are wanting to build a hotrod, do this with your budget, double it and add 20%, by the time you are done, that should be about right...

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: Strong enough?

Expedition diffs huh? Can that set up be swapped out for 9" diffs keeping the same half safts, uppers and lowers, ect...? I really wanted to stick with GM parts on this thing but I guess Ford still has the best diffs huh? Some things never change.

The 8.8" and 9" Fords are COMPLETELY different. Nothing interchanges.

The 9" has a drop-out center section, meaning gear changes are "easy" (pull the axle shafts, yank the center section, plug in a different center section, put the axles and lube back in, and you've got different gears).

The 8.8" doesn't have the drop out center, it's similar to the 10 and 12 bolt GM axles in design (rear inspection cover). Not exactly sure how the Expedition cases are set up (case design, material, or anything else about the, to be quite honest).

I would expect that converting a 9" to IFS (either aftermarket or 8.8" parts) would be hard and expensive. Heidt's has a 9" IRS setup, but its not exactly cheap either.....

'JustDreamin'

 

[7dhamper]

Re: Strong enough?

I get the impression you are in the planning stages and have a round idea what you want your final project to look like on the outside, but don't know about the guts....

Actually it' s the other way around. I haven't decided on wich fiberglass body I want on an AWD 4 way independent suspended 600HP G machine. I don't care about quarter mile times because you can't race convetables and I don't wan't a cage. I just figured Vette breaks, rims and engines are bolt ons with the S-10 platform so it makes it easier to build.

Why is the steering geometry so bad? With 2" longer than stock upper control arms my Jimmy 4X4 handled great with a 7 1/2" front 9" rear drop with coil overs on 18"s.