Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

[Emmo]

Hi all,

Need a little help to set timing. Just replaced distributor, knock sensor, pressure switch and brake booster. In process of setting distributor with timing light to "0 deg" with brown wire disconnected. The "old" harmonic balancer is marked with a paint stick and for the life of me I can't get the white paint mark to stabilize to a timing reading. I'm pretty sure I put the distributor back in the right gear slot and I can get engine to idle steady at about 680-700 rpm using my ear to set it. Then if I plug back in the brown wire it'll sometimes stall depending on where my ear guessed. So I've moved distributor around slightly (1/8 of a circle sweep at most) until it'll run with the brown wire connected but still can't get a stable paint mark off the timing cover reference scale. Also I don't have any engine codes once the brown wire is reconnected, otherwise with wire disconnected I get the "42" code that clears.

Could it maybe be that I tightened the knock sensor beyond 14 ft-lb or could it be the harmonic balancer is shot?

Many thanks for any ideas! Pete

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

Is the dist secure in the slot? ESC is disabled below 1800 rpm.

Balancer might be shot - is it loose?

 

[jharrison]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

The outer rings on the stock harmonic balancers have been known to slip placing the timing marks anywhere but where they should be.

 

[Emmo]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

I'll have to try and see if I can place a hand on the balancer without removing anything to see if loose. It's odd as the paint mark will randomly pass by and flash but wont stabilize to any point. I can understand if the rubber on the balancer slipped to a new position but is it possible that the rubber on the balancer is slipping all the time ?

Would I have to pull the radiator core to replace the balancer or just the fan/clutch and shroud? Just did water pump last Summer and would like to avoid that coming out too,

Yep, @ quickstop, the distributor is pretty well seated down in the slot just the hold down bolts is loosened just a tiny bit to allow me to turn the cap without losing position.

Thanks for the note about the ESC disabled below 1800, meaning that it's not even looking at the knock sensor
Thanks!

 

[AUSyTyIN]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

It's the balancer. You may or may not be able to spin it by hand (I couldn't when it happened to me)

 

[gstacky]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

I can't see the balancer dancing around that much while running, I could see it moving but the timing mark should still be in the same spot, just off from the marks. Could it be that your timing light is just junk? Maybe try another one just to be sure.

 

[ty166]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

puked timing chain and gears.

 

[berzerker]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

are you sure you marked the right timing mark on the balancer ? two marks on these . iirc the mark to the right when both are facing upward is the one to go by .

 

[evberger22]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

I had to remake the timing line on my balancer because the balancer slipped since the last time mine had been timed. Pull all plugs to make engine easier to turn over by hand. Turn over until cylinder #1 is at top dead center compression stroke. Look down spark plug hole on #1 to verify piston is at top.Also check that the rotor under distributor is pointing where #1 would spark. If you think you got that exact then use a bright colored paint marker a draw a new line on balancer right where the deep notch is on the right. After you do all this then try setting timing again. I am no expert but thats what i did and it worked.

 

[Emmo]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

@Berzerker, Oooh...you're right there are two marks, I just found out.... I marked the one to the left. I will try to clean off the paint and remark the notch to the right when looking down from the front.

I just pulled the fan shroud and fan/clutch and can easily access the balancer now. I felt by hand and no sign of slippage, it's hard, no slipping that I can tell. Rubber looks ok despite being original from 1991. Nice to know this can be done without removing any water lines/pump so far,

I hopes of getting a better view I in the middle of trying to remove the lower "big" pulley on the crank. Those three (3) outer hex bolts were super tight and afraid they would break but they didn't snap and came out. I dont know if the middle bolt has to come out but I'm scared to try. Think I will try the new paint mark and report back first. If the new mark doesn't work I'll go for the inner hex bolt on the pulley and tempt my fate

@evberger22 - I think if the second paint mark fails and I'll have to swap the balance and find TDC manually as it likely has slipped,

Will report back!

 

[Emmo]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

I tried the new notch marker to the right and still jumped around,

Decided to remove everything back to the balancer and turned the crank/notch to zero on the timing cover pointer. When I pull the cap the rotor is just past #1 firing close to #2. So I'm thinking if the balancer has slipped, it wouldn't be much.

I did wonder if it's the timing light but the RPM on the light display match pretty close to the stock tach. And I'm connected to #1 spark plug line. So that's not completely out of the question yet...

Just weird that the notch won't stay put when the light is on...

Going to bite the bullet and attempt to break free the center nut on the lower pulley as the three outer are already loose and get a better look at balancer, Then figure maybe see if I can find TDC through the plug hole on #1. In prior searches on the forum I've read of folks using a dowel to check? Any recommendations to find TDC without fabricating a specialty tool?

Again thanks for all the help today!!!

 

[Emmo]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

Pulled pulley and have a photo below of the old balancer. Can anyone tell from these two pics if is it's spun? The right side notch is lined up with the "O" mark on the pointer. Maybe the key way is the tell tale sign relative to the notches,

Going to go look for a replacement harmonic balancer that hopefully matches the stock pointer without modification to timing cover... and rest til tomorrow

 

[djwaggoner]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

My 2 cents: If your mark is jumping around under the timing lite - it's not the harmonic balancer. As mentioned above, it would give a *constant* error without jumping.
Your problem is electrical...could be the timing lite, or the distributor module, cap, rotor or plug wires. Check TDC vs your balancer...turn the engine by hand till the piston is at TDC as felt thru the sparkplug hole, see where your mark is.vs the " 0 ". That will quickly settle whether the balancer has spun.
Try another timing lite, fresh wires/rotor/cap? If it's jumpy w/ every plugwire then it's probably the module...
HTH

 

[DaveP]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

Can anyone tell from these two pics if is it's spun?

Yes, I can tell from the pics, using the key-way, and my knowledge. It has NOT spun.

BUT, you are using the wrong mark. It is the second mark to "go by". When the second mark is in the notch, the first one will be at 5:00. This is easy to check. You won't feel the piston with a screwdriver in the spark plug hole. Right now, it's about 1/2 way down the bore. Put the second mark at the notch, the piston will be visible in the spark plug hole, and the key-way will line up with the center-line of the #1 cyl bore.

 

[DaveP]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

iirc the mark to the right when both are facing upward is the one to go by .

Nice guess. But you got it wrong. You've caused the OP to chase this all day long because you gave him bad info. He took his chit all apart, and probably didn't need to.

 

[Emmo]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

Got some good info from above posts and via a PM from DaveP. Dave's note guided me to -

"First off, I think you're using the wrong mark on the ring. It is the second one to go by. In other words, when the second one lines up with the notch, the first one should be at about 5:00 position. If you ARE lined up on the second mark, your balancer HAS slipped, because the key-way is wrong. Keep reading….OK. Next is to check the ring for slipping. Line up the second mark with the notch. The key-way in the hub should line up exactly with the center-line of the bore of the driver's side cyl bank. Ie, #1 cyl. You can do this by eye. The second mark should be "behind" the key way by about 10º. There's how to check the balancer.

After you get the timing marks sorted out, pull #1 plug, rotate until you feel pressure on your finger (#1 firing coming up) line up the second mark with the notch, and check the distributor for being in #1 firing position.

With the key on, and the distributor hold down loose, rotate the distributor CW slightly past the firing position. Then sharply rotate CCW until you hear it spark, and the fuel pump "prime". That's the firing position. Try this several times to get a 'feel' for the precise position that firing occurs, and set the distributor in that position, and snug up the hold down bolt. Get the engine running, and re-check with a timing light. I'm usually spot-on using this method, and no further adjustment is needed. But even for a first-timer, you should be very close.

As far as the "jumping", I think your light is picking up adjacent cyls in the pick-up. Try separating the probe from other wires.

This should get you going. - DaveP"

 

[Emmo]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

Hence:

I determined that the balancer has NOT slipped. I pulled out #1 plug and attempted to find TDC by eyeball, light, dowel, and a then gave in and bought a piston stop nearby at Summitt for $10. I turned crank from both directions and found TDC to be extremely close to the left notch with the right notch being down at the 5 o'clock position when facing aft. Now I know that it take two turns of the crank for one turn of the distribution - compressor stroke and exhaust stroke.

Put it all back together and decided to try old distributor to see if it's the new Napa unit giving me trouble.

With the old distributor back in the mark is still jumpy. I did use the correct mark now. This mark is at TDC when the notch matches the pointer and the other notch is at 5 o'clock. I've learned a lot

So, back to the update, I think now after double checking everything it could be the timing light is bad. Will head to Advanced and see if they got another one or credit me for my new one that's only a few months old. If the new light doesn't work will try the method of turning key on and listening for spark at #1 and locking the new distributor down,

Will post update again. Thanks again all. And if any other ideas let me know



Side note: Almost bought a new balancer at Summit including the whole set-up to pull/install a new Pioneer balancer but don't when reviewing my plan with the fellow there we agreed that I probably will be able to get it off but putting it on just using a piston stop wasn't a good plan. I'd have to somehow lock up the flywheel or wait until the day I pull the engine and can block the piston with a hammer handle. Hence as original balancer hasn't slipped "yet" will continue troubleshooting

 

[Emmo]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

Update,

Got light replaced at Advanced. Same problem with new light, jumpy timing mark. The RPMs do fluctuate at idle, i.e slight rough idle 690-740 rpm, so I'm wondering if that's what's throwing off the light/notch,

Figure I'll try and use the method of setting new distributor to #1 when I "feel" a spark with the key in the on position then lock down the distributor.

In past year I've redone all the vacuum lines, brake booster, replaced ignition coil, flow tested injectors, replaced fuel pump to Walbro, replace AFR to adjustable (pressure is good), replaced IAC, new plugs/cap/rotor, and O2 sensor about 2 years old,

Just weird,

Let me know if any other ideas pop into mind this weekend, gonna take a break for now, thanks again!

 

[Emmo]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

Update - think we got it working!

After trying a couple of more things I put the new distributor back in and went for DaveP's mechanical technique to set distributor without a light. I pulled #1 plug and set the crank to TDC and slowly turned the distributor to spark with the key in the on position. Worked pretty well and you feel the click and see the light show from the plug and hear the fuel pump prime. Locked hold down bolt down and tested it out.

After locking it down and putting everything back together, I could not keep the engine going WITHOUT plugging in the brown wire under the dash. With the wire unplugged it would stall every time. I plugged it in and it ran...but a very very low RPM about 580ish. Then I decided to let it run a little longer to warm up the ignition module and it seemed to get better. Knowing what TDC position was and that I had locked down the distributor, and the balancer hasnt slipped, I decided to put the front wheel / fender back on and test out my new brake booster.

Got it all back together and it occurred to me that maybe I should reset the ECM fuses... so I did with battery unplugged. Truck started up again, with brown wire attached, and let it idle to a stable about 630rpm. Then when I first put into drive it stalled. Tried again and slowly it found itself at low idle but not stalling between drive and reverse. Tested booster and brakes, all felt ok.

Then went for a drive.... at beginning it was ok...low rpm's at idle but that went away and after about 5 min she was idling at 740ish rpm and not stalling between drive, neutral, and reverse. Looked like success and I decided to pull up into drive and test new timing light. Still jumpy but rpm's at around 730 and slightly more stable, but not enough to give an exact deg reading by my eye.

Let it rest and re-intalled all the plastic covers and put hood back on. NOTE - pull the hood off, can't tell how many times I've sat up there on engine in past four days,

Then for out for another drive. Started up no problem and down drive ok. BUT then decided to try the old AC unit. She stalled. Started up and again and drove ...with rpm's going up in drive AC ran ok. Then ran for a few more minutes and let it sit idle....now AC will run with engine in idle....BASICALLY knock on wood I believe I'm ok. The truck runs really well now and the tach is constant at idle. I think the rpm's are still slightly jumpy and causing the marker to jump but I know mechanically we got TDC at #1 position. I'm happy!!

Did try reading RPM from #4 wire too to see timing mark, no change.

Also...now have a pressure sensor gauge that is now reading in the middle for the first time in 5 years and not jumping and the brake booster isn't making any wooshing/duck noises!

Final help note to others after pulling the fan off three times... you can roll the crank with the fan installed if you use a deep 5/8" socket and some extensions and a towel by the radiator to protect your hands. Save some time from pulling the fan off.

Thanks to all for the help and will post if anything else changes. Time for some beers Pete

 

[jusssi]

Re: Can't Set Timing - Unstable Notch

Hi. There is same kind of problems in my Ty too. What did you mean " then decided to try the old AC unit" AC unit? Sorry my english isn't pretty good...