I was reading carcraft and a 700 article pops up. Well, the article had a company that builds the 700 for big block application using a "five gear planetary", other special parts ect....I know NOTHING about automatics but was wondering. Will the 700 ever, or can it ever, be a "bulletproof" transmission if the right parts became available. It pretty much happened with buicks little tranny. The "hard parts" have become available and they are living in the 10's. People used to just pull it and install a 400. I know there may be stronger/better options "now" but what about the future?
will the 700r4 ever be "bulletproof"
- Thread starter Ross L
- Start date
George Blake
DONATING MEMBER
Re: will the 700r4 ever be "bulletproof"
700r4 is being phased out and will be replaced by the 6 speed autos in the very near future. GM won't be doing any other developement on it. The aluminum drum and tiny sprag and the manner in which it shifts will ALWAYS be the achilis heel. The 4L80e is the current TRUE bulletproof trans. 5 pinion planetaries are made of a powdered metal and the extra pinion was added to spread the load out over the weaker structure. The 4 pinion is more than adequate. If you ever look at the inside of a 4L80e and compare it to a 700, you'll realize that there is NO comparison.
700r4 is being phased out and will be replaced by the 6 speed autos in the very near future. GM won't be doing any other developement on it. The aluminum drum and tiny sprag and the manner in which it shifts will ALWAYS be the achilis heel. The 4L80e is the current TRUE bulletproof trans. 5 pinion planetaries are made of a powdered metal and the extra pinion was added to spread the load out over the weaker structure. The 4 pinion is more than adequate. If you ever look at the inside of a 4L80e and compare it to a 700, you'll realize that there is NO comparison.
Re: will the 700r4 ever be "bulletproof"
but with all the 700's out there won't companies continue to attempt to "step up" the products. Would a billet drum and "super duper stong" sprag help. I've read your threads on the issues with the mannor in which the 700's shift(still don't understand autos). Even with the transmission phased out and better(expensive) options, can the 700 "evolve"?
but with all the 700's out there won't companies continue to attempt to "step up" the products. Would a billet drum and "super duper stong" sprag help. I've read your threads on the issues with the mannor in which the 700's shift(still don't understand autos). Even with the transmission phased out and better(expensive) options, can the 700 "evolve"?
Loeryder
New member
Re: will the 700r4 ever be "bulletproof"
Its a price point.
By the time you re-engineer and improve the quality and durability of the parts in the 700 you are at the level where you can swap in a 80e and end up with even better longevity.
So yeah, it can be improved upon.
Will it be the same "bulletproof" that even a mildly built 80e will?
Doubt it.
If you started hardening and making billet parts for the 80e I can't imagine it would ever let you down.
Its a price point.
By the time you re-engineer and improve the quality and durability of the parts in the 700 you are at the level where you can swap in a 80e and end up with even better longevity.
So yeah, it can be improved upon.
Will it be the same "bulletproof" that even a mildly built 80e will?
Doubt it.
If you started hardening and making billet parts for the 80e I can't imagine it would ever let you down.
gjp
another post whore
Re: will the 700r4 ever be "bulletproof"
I had a full build 700r by Bruce at pts trans. He is one of the masters of the 200r and 700r. After it died. (3k build) I went with george and his 80e conv. I can tell you the transmissions are night and day. The way the 80e works in the truck is far better then even a build 700r. Its by far the best mod you can to to a syty. Why waste the time on the 700r when you now have the option of putting in a much better transmission.
I had a full build 700r by Bruce at pts trans. He is one of the masters of the 200r and 700r. After it died. (3k build) I went with george and his 80e conv. I can tell you the transmissions are night and day. The way the 80e works in the truck is far better then even a build 700r. Its by far the best mod you can to to a syty. Why waste the time on the 700r when you now have the option of putting in a much better transmission.
![Quickstop [UK]](/data/avatars/m/5/5165.jpg?1570199786){kind=avatar}
Quickstop [UK]
Combating adversyty.
Re: will the 700r4 ever be "bulletproof"
when are the 6 speed autos coming to the market though, in particular the syty world?
when are the 6 speed autos coming to the market though, in particular the syty world?
Re: will the 700r4 ever be "bulletproof"
I don't doubt the 80e is a wonderful transmission and it's a huge improvement over the 700. Only thing is a) price. isn't it almost $5k for the setup(if not more). b) originality, I wouldn't buy a GN with a TH400 even though it's better and won't break.I probably wouldn't buy a Syclone unless it had the original transmission. I don't mind bolt-on mods and maybe some would consider the 80e just that. I also know most people don't buy Syclone's for the investment but it could only hurt the value way down the road(not having correct motor/transmission). To me, it would be like swapping the motor for something "better". Sure you could, but I wouldn't. All just my opinion of course...
Ross
I don't doubt the 80e is a wonderful transmission and it's a huge improvement over the 700. Only thing is a) price. isn't it almost $5k for the setup(if not more). b) originality, I wouldn't buy a GN with a TH400 even though it's better and won't break.I probably wouldn't buy a Syclone unless it had the original transmission. I don't mind bolt-on mods and maybe some would consider the 80e just that. I also know most people don't buy Syclone's for the investment but it could only hurt the value way down the road(not having correct motor/transmission). To me, it would be like swapping the motor for something "better". Sure you could, but I wouldn't. All just my opinion of course...
Ross
91blazins10
Active member
Re: will the 700r4 ever be "bulletproof"
nope :rotf:
nope :rotf:
jabberwalk
New member
Re: will the 700r4 ever be "bulletproof"
Trophy for Nats XI?
91blazins10 said:nope :rotf:
Trophy for Nats XI?
George Blake
DONATING MEMBER
Re: will the 700r4 ever be "bulletproof"
First you say this:
Then you say this:
Billet = big ass dollar signs. "Super strong sprag". You don't know how this stuff works. The 700 has a physical dimensional limitation on sprag size. Your complaining about the cost of an 80e then you want billet drums for a 700. Oxymoron. Did you read what Jas' wrote? If you buy a Syclone that has an 80e, you will never break the trans. If you buy a Syclone with a 700, you WILL break the trans. But you would never buy a Sy with an 80e????? Weird stuff there brother. I can't make sense of it. Take care.
First you say this:
Ross L said:
Then you say this:
Ross L said:
Billet = big ass dollar signs. "Super strong sprag". You don't know how this stuff works. The 700 has a physical dimensional limitation on sprag size. Your complaining about the cost of an 80e then you want billet drums for a 700. Oxymoron. Did you read what Jas' wrote? If you buy a Syclone that has an 80e, you will never break the trans. If you buy a Syclone with a 700, you WILL break the trans. But you would never buy a Sy with an 80e????? Weird stuff there brother. I can't make sense of it. Take care.
Re: will the 700r4 ever be "bulletproof"
Thanks for all the input. I never intend to beat on my truck and can count on one hand the number of times I've gone WOT since I bought it. I was kidding about the "super strong sprag"but wasn't when I said I don't understand autos.A billet drum is $$$ but "if" it would improve the durability I would consider it "if" I ever get a rebuild
I read what Jas wrote and also what Jimmy wrote . Believe me, I'm not trying to discredit the greatness of the 80e. I was just asking "if" the 700 will get better and evolve with better and better parts??? There are plenty out there I hope someone will step up. And yes I would spend $5000 on a bulit 700(billet drum) over the 80e since it's the original transmission,even though it not as good :rant: just to keep it "original"
Ross
Thanks for all the input. I never intend to beat on my truck and can count on one hand the number of times I've gone WOT since I bought it. I was kidding about the "super strong sprag"but wasn't when I said I don't understand autos.A billet drum is $$$ but "if" it would improve the durability I would consider it "if" I ever get a rebuild
I read what Jas wrote and also what Jimmy wrote . Believe me, I'm not trying to discredit the greatness of the 80e. I was just asking "if" the 700 will get better and evolve with better and better parts??? There are plenty out there I hope someone will step up. And yes I would spend $5000 on a bulit 700(billet drum) over the 80e since it's the original transmission,even though it not as good :rant: just to keep it "original"Ross
dgoodhue
BuSTeD 4.3
Re: will the 700r4 ever be "bulletproof"
I honestly don't think it will. For a while I beleive we were the only group really pushing the envelope of what a 700R4 could be built up. My contact with other GM groups running 700R4's was them discarding them for other transmission once they did the basic HP rebuild. 10's have been done with 700r4 in SyTy, the problem is that they don't have a long life. I remember reading that Robert was tearing down his 700R4 transmission down every 30-50 WOT runs. This was probably with 5-6K Hartman transmission with Cyro treating/Billet parts. Once the 4L80E, was introduced (and turbo 400 conversions as well) The quick Sy's quickly went from mids 10 sec truck to 9's. The only way I could see a 700R4 reliably putting up with the stress of a 10 sec SyTy is if we had some type torque management PCM with a 4L60-E (ie cut the power on shifts)
For a basic 12 truck that isn't being driven that hard, a well built 700R4 could suffice. You can get them to live in the 11's, but I would crossing my fingers. You mention that you would rather have a $5000 700R4, than 4L80E. What happen if the 700 has a failure and takes out the hard partd of the tranny? Your out $5K and back to square one. A 4L80E is less likely to break, but also most of the expense of a 4L80E is in the Torque Converter, Conversion parts, and Electronics. A blown 4L80E might cost $1000 and your probably back on the road.
Ross L said:
I honestly don't think it will. For a while I beleive we were the only group really pushing the envelope of what a 700R4 could be built up. My contact with other GM groups running 700R4's was them discarding them for other transmission once they did the basic HP rebuild. 10's have been done with 700r4 in SyTy, the problem is that they don't have a long life. I remember reading that Robert was tearing down his 700R4 transmission down every 30-50 WOT runs. This was probably with 5-6K Hartman transmission with Cyro treating/Billet parts. Once the 4L80E, was introduced (and turbo 400 conversions as well) The quick Sy's quickly went from mids 10 sec truck to 9's. The only way I could see a 700R4 reliably putting up with the stress of a 10 sec SyTy is if we had some type torque management PCM with a 4L60-E (ie cut the power on shifts)
For a basic 12 truck that isn't being driven that hard, a well built 700R4 could suffice. You can get them to live in the 11's, but I would crossing my fingers. You mention that you would rather have a $5000 700R4, than 4L80E. What happen if the 700 has a failure and takes out the hard partd of the tranny? Your out $5K and back to square one. A 4L80E is less likely to break, but also most of the expense of a 4L80E is in the Torque Converter, Conversion parts, and Electronics. A blown 4L80E might cost $1000 and your probably back on the road.
Tooky
Serious about performance
Re: will the 700r4 ever be "bulletproof"
Ross, I totally understand your position. You don't want to "hack up" your original truck by making a bunch of irreversible changes. Plenty of us feel the same way.
Dave (dgoodhue) made a good point though. The 200-4R got to where it is (9 second capable) because there are 30,000+ Turbo Regals out there to make a market and push for its development. What fast vehicle run a 700R4? Just about nothing. You have Tuned Port F-Bodys and 4th gen Corvettes, neither of which are known for being fast in anywhere near stock form. And SyTys which obviously is way too small of a market to justify most parts R&D.
It's certainly possible that improved 700R4 parts could come out down the line. Hell, TCI *JUST* released a new "constant pressure" 700R4 valve body! So new development IS still being done. It'd be nice to ask TCI who they are targeting their new 700R4 products towards?
As for the 5 pinion planetaries, I have them in mine (front and rear), and ALL the GM literature I have read on the 4L65/4L70 drivetrains specifically mention the 5 pinion's being designed to handle the INCREASED TORQUE of the 400HP/400TQ 6.0 LS2 engine.. :dunno: I've seen plenty of photos of broken 4 pinion planetaries, that's for sure.
Finally, regarding the 4L80, the reason so many people are gung-ho about them on this forum, is because it's the only solution for a "stock driveability" 4 speed overdrive transmission that is not likely to break in a high performance application, regardless of the builder or vehicle owner! The same can't be said of the 700R4.
The 4L80 also received a 5 pinion planetary upgrade in the 4L85, GM cites the same reason (increased torque capacity for a specific high output engine). Go figure.
PS: Ross, it's not "abusing" your truck to go WOT. I have run my stock engine, original transmission over 3000 WOT runs and have the evidence to prove it (hundreds of Datamaster files, some with over 25 WOT runs in a single file). I also probably boost launched it over 500 times. Now I have a fully built 700R4 and I'd guess I'm way over the 1000 WOT run point on it, plus some 4 mile road course racing. IMO, when it comes to the first 5 or 10 WOT runs, it's generally either going to break, or it isn't...
Ross, I totally understand your position. You don't want to "hack up" your original truck by making a bunch of irreversible changes. Plenty of us feel the same way.
Dave (dgoodhue) made a good point though. The 200-4R got to where it is (9 second capable) because there are 30,000+ Turbo Regals out there to make a market and push for its development. What fast vehicle run a 700R4? Just about nothing. You have Tuned Port F-Bodys and 4th gen Corvettes, neither of which are known for being fast in anywhere near stock form. And SyTys which obviously is way too small of a market to justify most parts R&D.
It's certainly possible that improved 700R4 parts could come out down the line. Hell, TCI *JUST* released a new "constant pressure" 700R4 valve body! So new development IS still being done. It'd be nice to ask TCI who they are targeting their new 700R4 products towards?
As for the 5 pinion planetaries, I have them in mine (front and rear), and ALL the GM literature I have read on the 4L65/4L70 drivetrains specifically mention the 5 pinion's being designed to handle the INCREASED TORQUE of the 400HP/400TQ 6.0 LS2 engine.. :dunno: I've seen plenty of photos of broken 4 pinion planetaries, that's for sure.
Finally, regarding the 4L80, the reason so many people are gung-ho about them on this forum, is because it's the only solution for a "stock driveability" 4 speed overdrive transmission that is not likely to break in a high performance application, regardless of the builder or vehicle owner! The same can't be said of the 700R4.
The 4L80 also received a 5 pinion planetary upgrade in the 4L85, GM cites the same reason (increased torque capacity for a specific high output engine). Go figure.
PS: Ross, it's not "abusing" your truck to go WOT. I have run my stock engine, original transmission over 3000 WOT runs and have the evidence to prove it (hundreds of Datamaster files, some with over 25 WOT runs in a single file). I also probably boost launched it over 500 times. Now I have a fully built 700R4 and I'd guess I'm way over the 1000 WOT run point on it, plus some 4 mile road course racing. IMO, when it comes to the first 5 or 10 WOT runs, it's generally either going to break, or it isn't...