Why??

[Drag SGT]

Re: Why??

Any idea how much cheaper? I haven't seen a change in price at all.

here is a little of what I am talking about

http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33532

Now I know a shop has to mark up the parts to make ends meet on their side but where does it end? That is quite a markup there..... hope it comes with a fresh tube of KY

What I meant was that the place that's making/sending my crank is doing it for a whole lot cheaper than if I got it from a vendor. Sorry for the confusion, I tend to do that sometimes. I don't know/think that vendor prices would be going down any time soon.

If I have a chance to do it all over again I'll will not mod the SyTy. What I would do is drop in an LT1 or LS1 and 4L80E and go from there. Just pull the SyTy engine and tranny out and save it some where.

That's kind of what I'm doing. I'm gonna pull the GT motor and start from scratch. In the process In between I'll tear down and clean the stock engine so that if I ever have to sell it, I can pull out my engine and put a nice looking, number matching engine back in.

When I first got into this all I looked at were vendor prices, and being naive, I was almost willing to pay some big prices. After a little research and time, I've gained a lot of knowledge and a little insight. WIth the exception of the crank and (I'm assuming) header's (because I don't know how easy it will be to get ones to fit my GT and people seem to complain about SyTy price), most parts, i.e pistons, rings, and such are fairly common can be found for cheaper. I always check it out when the local part shops have sales. I should probably stop ranting before my post takes up some more space.

 

[sytyguy]

Re: Why??

Makes my $15 ABS Delete Kit seem cheap......

As someone who sets prices and sells to this (very small) market, I can tell you that getting someone to invest their time and money into a project w/o knowing what color their wallet will wind up when they're done is a HUGE risk to take. Here's some math:

Total SyTys - 7000ish
# of SyTys that are active and are exposed to vendors - 3000ish
% of those SyTys that will potentially undergo heavy mods - 15% (1 out of every 6-7)

So that means that their are about 450 potential units for a vendor to sell when designing a product for SyTys. Now, you can cut that number way down due to lack of fitment, competition, custom designing, etc.... So, we're down to about 150-200 potential sales. And I doubt you'd ever see half of that number. So, who's gonna make suspension kits, headers, intakes, etc....for 75-100 potential sales? Only someone who's crazy (which is why I'd never trust Mike, Jeff, or John with my kids

) or someone who's non-specialized.

If someone has to incur the cost of buying specialized machines (jigs, pipe benders, welders, lathes, etc....), pay a professional to do part of the job, buy quality materials, and market their product.........then I can see the need to inflate prices just to break even (not yet thinking of potentially making a profit) with a market that small.

Am I supporting or justifying overpriced parts? Hell no. Just saying that there is sometimes a lot more to making this cake than most people think. Personally, I think $90 to get a little sticker for the license plate on my truck each year is WAY overpriced, but I'm not at city hall hog tying the county commissioner because I haven't a clue as to what all my $90 goes towards. Maybe it funds my sister's education, maybe it gets my dirt road scraped, or maybe it puts a redlight up at an intersection where my friend got killed last year.

Demand means everything to business.

Hood

 

[critical]

Re: Why??

But there are millions of S-10's waiting to get heavily modded w/ our parts....

 

[sytyguy]

Re: Why??

But there are millions of S-10's waiting to get heavily modded w/ our parts....

I have yet to see a flood of S-Series interest in any post that we make here or there when someone is trying to gauge interest in getting a part made.

How many S-Series owners are really considering buying turbo V6 headers?
How many S-Series owners are really considering buying modified vortec heads/intake?
How many S-Series owners are really considering buying a 4WD coil-over suspension?
How many S-Series owners are really considering buying a 4L80E kit?

If there are so many of these guys out there then where are they? Should we duplicate everything we post here (syty.net) over there (s-series.org)? If I wanted a turbo for my S10, I'd seek out a board where that is the happening thing, not wait for them to come to me.

Not picking on you, but in the last 10 years I've seen this comment/debate come and go and still there seems to be little S-Series influence on our market. I'd love to see more involvement from them to help lower prices and boost vendor sales, but at the same time, I can't say that I want every S10 in my town running a turbo 4.3 because the kits are cheap as dirt. Expense provides exclusivity if at the cost of those in the market.

There is no one, "cure-all" answer IMO. We play an expensive game and that may just be the dues we have to pay to play. It has been thus far, and I don't see any change in the wind (steel prices still rising, gas prices still rising, etc...).

Hood

 

[windowlicker]

Re: Why??

Expense provides exclusivity if at the cost of those in the market.

Hood

GREAT QUOTE!

If you want something cheap and easy to modify with tons of parts and aftermarket support, buy a mustang.

 

[93ty475]

Re: Why??

GREAT QUOTE!

If you want something cheap and easy to modify with tons of parts and aftermarket support, buy a mustang.

My upcoming car project is a V8 turbo stang....I've already started hunting and tracking down the needed parts.... :git:

 

[ed hess]

Re: Why??

>>>Anyone ever wonder why SyTy's are behind the pace as far as drag racing goes?<<<

wow guess i better get on the stick. lol

one thing i have noticed is that many are behind in the pace because they just seem to keep getting into the same line as everyone else before them.

here is what i mean.

harry and i went from 11.9 to 9.9 in one season.

what did we do different.

dfi instead of a chip. got us into the 10's with a pte 60 turbo, vortec heads and rpm a2a. to get into the 9's we changed the turbo, cam and ic. We didnt spend big bucks

you all know those kind of changes arent big bucks.

but we didnt do the same thing as everyone else.

what i did see was that i had no problem selling off the 'standard recipe type parts' that everyone else allways starts out with.

now you would have thought that this would have generated a lot of interest or better yet syty owners contacting harry to help them.

well to date, harry has worked with exactly one sy owner besides myself.

so what i am saying here is that until owners start to think outside the box so to speak then SyTy's will contiue to be behind the pace as far as drag racing goes.

just my 2 cents...

 

[Silly]

Re: Why??

so what i am saying here is that until owners start to think outside the box so to speak then SyTy's will contiue to be behind the pace as far as drag racing goes.

HMmmmmm where have I heard that before.

Kinda makes me laugh and remember when a vendor would tell people on here they needed to buy a 60's series turbo from him so you can run 11's.

 

[Syclone#1992]

Re: Why??

>>>Anyone ever wonder why SyTy's are behind the pace as far as drag racing goes?<<<

wow guess i better get on the stick. lol

one thing i have noticed is that many are behind in the pace because they just seem to keep getting into the same line as everyone else before them.

here is what i mean.

harry and i went from 11.9 to 9.9 in one season.

what did we do different.

dfi instead of a chip. got us into the 10's with a pte 60 turbo, vortec heads and rpm a2a. to get into the 9's we changed the turbo, cam and ic. We didnt spend big bucks

you all know those kind of changes arent big bucks.

but we didnt do the same thing as everyone else.

what i did see was that i had no problem selling off the 'standard recipe type parts' that everyone else allways starts out with.

now you would have thought that this would have generated a lot of interest or better yet syty owners contacting harry to help them.

well to date, harry has worked with exactly one sy owner besides myself.

so what i am saying here is that until owners start to think outside the box so to speak then SyTy's will contiue to be behind the pace as far as drag racing goes.

just my 2 cents...

I agree, most people know what combo, will give them X.XX time...and many people will follow the tried and true, because they know it works. Many of the top dogs (Top 10) have experience and money to get it done, and the fabrication skills. In your case, you have Harry to tune, and Keith Mease (sp?) to help you out. Many of us are DIYers and done have the money to pay a guy like Harry to spend a day tuning our truck, much less fly him out. The cookie cutter build is bowtie block, good heads, big turbo, good fuel, stand alone fuel management, and good air flow and stout drivetrain. Not many people can afford to yank the whole truck apart and build something to that magnitude.

In my opinion, the AWD also plays a role. I believe these trucks (top ten) all have the motor to run 8's, but if you watch, many of them get sideways, and are all over the track with AWD. I know all the top ten have probably had some really close calls!

I wouldn't say we are "behind", I would just say that we are a just a unique community with a different breed of animal, than the typical GN, T-Type, Supra, ect.

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Why??

I have yet to see a flood of S-Series interest in any post that we make here or there when someone is trying to gauge interest in getting a part made.

How many S-Series owners are really considering buying turbo V6 headers?
How many S-Series owners are really considering buying modified vortec heads/intake?
How many S-Series owners are really considering buying a 4WD coil-over suspension?
How many S-Series owners are really considering buying a 4L80E kit?

If there are so many of these guys out there then where are they? Should we duplicate everything we post here (syty.net) over there (s-series.org)? If I wanted a turbo for my S10, I'd seek out a board where that is the happening thing, not wait for them to come to me

Their are two problem I see with the S-Series market and yes I am stereotyping the majority of them (note I didn't say all). The majority aren't performance oriented, usually a SBC fits their needs. Otherwise it bagged lowrider or jacked up 4x4 crowd, so interchangable parts are rarely purchased.
The 2nd is they are cheap, I have noticed when vehicle are relatively dirt cheap the owner don't want to spend a ton of money on engine mods (ironically they will spend mass amount on a booming stereo equipment) I noticed with the C4 Corvette market once they became realtively cheap owner would sacrifice quality for price, one good example is headers. Quality coated header and Stainless Steel were available for $600-900 but masses recommend the $279 headers that the Y pipe did not fit and it had thin flanges that some had problem with warping.

An additional issue is the technical knowledge involve with the 4.3's. The mass majority of engine modifiers that I run into (Corvette, Mustangs, Honda's, Supra, etc.) want some thing they can bolt on and go fast. They don't want to tune. They want a simple solution to a complex set of variable, thrown in a chip and gain 20hp and not really understand how it interacts with the rest of the engine. They want a "catalog truck" that run good numbers.

 

[sytyguy]

Re: Why??

Their are two problem I see with the S-Series market and yes I am stereotyping the majority of them (note I didn't say all). The majority aren't performance oriented, usually a SBC fits their needs. Otherwise it bagged lowrider or jacked up 4x4 crowd, so interchangable parts are rarely purchased.
The 2nd is they are cheap, I have noticed when vehicle are relatively dirt cheap the owner don't want to spend a ton of money on engine mods (ironically they will spend mass amount on a booming stereo equipment) I noticed with the C4 Corvette market once they became realtively cheap owner would sacrifice quality for price, one good example is headers. Quality coated header and Stainless Steel were available for $600-900 but masses recommend the $279 headers that the Y pipe did not fit and it had thin flanges that some had problem with warping.

An additional issue is the technical knowledge involve with the 4.3's. The mass majority of engine modifiers that I run into (Corvette, Mustangs, Honda's, Supra, etc.) want some thing they can bolt on and go fast. They don't want to tune. They want a simple solution to a complex set of variable, thrown in a chip and gain 20hp and not really understand how it interacts with the rest of the engine. They want a "catalog truck" that run good numbers.

Exactly.....it's all bang for buck when your not concerned with staying true to a type of build. The fact that we're trying to stick with V6s, AWD, and a turbo concedes that we need to be willing to incur certain costs (penalties) to go that route. Why? It's not the norm. Anybody can buy a 2WD S10, drop a V8 in and run good numbers with minimal tuning. Does this show a lack of ability on behalf of the owner? No....it's show he's financially aware that this is the cheapest/easiest route for going fast in an S10.

In fact, many S-Series guys will need a good reason not to go with a V8 (force fed or not) when faced with the alternatives (mod the V6 or, even worse, the I4). If I was in their shoes (and I am to some extent), I wouldn't even consider a turbo V6 or modding a V6 when LSx power can be had so cheaply and efficiently these days (and getting cheaper).

Not a lot of guys are willing to do a swap that could wind up costing as much as their trucks costed in the first place.

Hood

 

[qbnkiller]

Re: Why??

There are lots of good points being made here. The 4.3L market is pretty slim, from a peformance standpoint. THere are not too many people that are truly interested in building their 4.3L engines to warrant many manufacturers to devote R&D $$$ for new products. It sucks for us, but it is a fact of business.

To expound on what Ed was saying...it's true that many people stick with a recipe that is tested. They want the whole 'catalog truck' thing. It's easy to drop in an Ultimate 50# chip, rather than investing in a laptop, DM, wideband, EEPROM burner....all that stuff. It has always cost money to go fast. It just costs a little more for our trucks. But back to the point. There is more than one way to reach a speed goal. Ed and Harry have reached it one way. The Hoovers, another. Look at Mike Lee (Ghettosled) and Marty, yet another. It is because of people like this that the remainder of those on this board go faster. It is their trial and error that helps us advance to the next level with our builds. Just ask Ed how many govenors he replaced in his truck before he found the *right* one. I'm sure the Hoovers went through hell and high water to get to the combination they have. How 'bout our friends up north (Canada)...they have been testing a variety of combinations that cover a broad range of power requirements for people. From their latest turbo offering, to the complete engine builds, they continue to offer what the majority are looking for. It is not everyone who wants to do a 4L80e - better said - can afford it.

I want to thank those of you on this board who are 'truly informed'. This is not meant as a slam against anyone in particular. It is a generalized statement.

 

[Silly]

Re: Why??

Everyone has made some good points but those points don't cover everything, only the specific parts your talking about.

Yes there must be a markup so the vendors don't lose their ass but not on EVERYTHING.

There shouldnt be a $2350 charge for vortec's but hey that seems to be accepted

It has been proven that the markup on the crank is almost $1000. There is no R&D involved in that. There is nothing more than picking up the phone and placing the order.

Mark up the parts that deserve to be marked up based on your business in making/obtaining the part. But don't do it on every part you sell.

 

[blk00z28]

Re: Why??

The only way to get down to the real answer your looking for MT (Marlboro Typhoon) is to have the vendors list a p&l. (profit and loss) See exactly what they pay for said product and what they sell it for. So if say (as an example only.) RPM gets a crank for $2k, he sells it for $2200.. thats not to bad. I can deal with Mike getting $200 from me on a part like that. But if he gets it for like $850 and sells it for $2200 then we have a problem.

But, what vendor in his or her right mind would show the general public what they make off each product? I sure wouldnt if I was one. Because if everyone knows your making $150 profit on something your going to get people to say "Hey, would you take.. $50 for this rather then $200"

 

[Syclone#1992]

Re: Why??

The only way to get down to the real answer your looking for MT (Marlboro Typhoon) is to have the vendors list a p&l. (profit and loss) See exactly what they pay for said product and what they sell it for. So if say (as an example only.) RPM gets a crank for $2k, he sells it for $2200.. thats not to bad. I can deal with Mike getting $200 from me on a part like that. But if he gets it for like $850 and sells it for $2200 then we have a problem.

But, what vendor in his or her right mind would show the general public what they make off each product? I sure wouldnt if I was one. Because if everyone knows your making $150 profit on something your going to get people to say "Hey, would you take.. $50 for this rather then $200"

Exactly...its a business, and they are trying to run a profitable business...

 

[Silly]

Re: Why??

but we are not playing the "what if game here"

The price for the crank has been posted and the mark up is between $800-$1000 that is a FACT

the price for the heads have been posted. And anyone with half a brain should know that it is hard justifying $2350 for some heads you can go get from the junkyard for $200 then drop another $1500 max to get the same results.

but hey whatever, people gotta make a buck, got families and shit to feed, just don't rob me.

 

[Syclone#1992]

Re: Why??

but we are not playing the "what if game here"

The price for the crank has been posted and the mark up is between $800-$1000 that is a FACT

the price for the heads have been posted. And anyone with half a brain should know that it is hard justifying $2350 for some heads you can go get from the junkyard for $200 then drop another $1500 max to get the same results.

but hey whatever, people gotta make a buck, got families and shit to feed, just don't rob me.

In your example with the heads there is a $650 difference. $650 dollars can be looked at as the "opportunity cost"....for some people it is easier than going to the junk yard, spending time dealing with the junkyard, finding them, making sure they aren't cracked/warped....making sure they don't have 300,000 miles on them. Many would rather pay $650 to make it easier on themselves and insure they have the right head, fitment ect.

An economics course will help you understand this market.

 

[Silly]

Re: Why??

An economics course will help you understand this market.

I really have no interest to learn why I would get ****ed on parts.

A $1000 markup is a $1000 markup no matter how you look at it or how many class' you take.

Maybe I am just jealous I can't mark things up like that for simply making a phone call.

 

[qbnkiller]

Re: Why??

I know for a fact that some people see me selling injectors at this low price and have a problem with it. I try to make it affordable for you people here, and I make a few dollars on each injector. The same thing for the intake I'm working on. Now, I am not going to sell it for cost + $600...that's just silly.

 

[Silly]

Re: Why??

The same thing for the intake I'm working on. Now, I am not going to sell it for cost + $600...that's just silly.

Why should you help the community with cheap affordable parts...... make a killing off us while you can. Hopefully you can retire and happy man at a young age.

I just learned that from opening my Jr. year economics book.