Tuning for alcohol

[J-bird]

I got my new alcohol injection kit installed and now I'm having a hard time installing it.

I'm running a devvilsown progressive kit with a 12 gpm nozzle. I start the alcohol spraying in at 2psi and full by 25psi, Right now I'm only running 15psi. I have been pulling fuel to get the AFR back down to around 11.5:1 and I'm getting crazy knock retard again. Is it possible that my nozzle is to big and I'm having to pull too much fuel to get my afr's down?

I'm running 100% meth, and have heard conflicting views on how to tune for it. Should I go back to my non alky tune and spray over that? Or should I be removing fuel?

How does this work, I know that the alcohol reads different than gas on a wide band O2. Should I be looking to go leaner or richer with alky? I think that I also read that alcohol like more timing, should i add more timing and see if the knock retard goes away?

I feel lost!

Thanks,

Jeremy

 

[JSM]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

You want around 11:1 with meth spraying.

I have found the devils own kit one of the most challenging to tune with.

 

[J-bird]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

so do you think a 12gpm nozzle is too big? would that make it knock. when should I start injecting?

 

[0260IN3]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

so do you think a 12gpm nozzle is too big? would that make it knock. when should I start injecting?

It's probably not knock, it is probably breaking up badly............

 

[J-bird]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

It's probably not knock, it is probably breaking up badly............

Buy breaking up you mean spark blow out??

Would this show up in knock counts? I was under the impression that most start to breaking up with way more boost than I am running. Is there a way to tell that it is breaking up and not detonation?

Thanks,

Jeremy

 

[0260IN3]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

Buy breaking up you mean spark blow out??

Would this show up in knock counts? I was under the impression that most start to breaking up with way more boost than I am running. Is there a way to tell that it is breaking up and not detonation?

Thanks,

Jeremy

That's hard to say for sure, but we have seen many situations where too much methanol / overrich condition will show up as spark knock and it can happen easier at low boost vs high boost because at high boost your moving so much air and making so much cylinder pressure you can almost overcome the methanol / overrich situation. You can also run the mixture a lot richer at higher boost because of this. At low boost (10-15 psi) with methanol, we will be in the 11's and a high boost (20+ psi) we will run almost as rich as possible (low 10's) without breaking up.

Make sure your plugs are gapped down in the mid .02's (.025 +/-) and usually one range cooler at least than stock and iridiums are also a good idea.( TR6IX / UR6IX depending on heads)

 

[J-bird]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

last night I changed the plugs out to NKG UR6XI's gapped at .028. this rely didn't make much difference. I think I am running too much too soon! I ordered a 10gph nozzle today and will try it when it comes in. I think I will also try waiting to spray the alcohol later maybe 7-9psi instead of 2psi.

does this sound right?

Thanks

 

[JSM]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

We found the devils own to drown the truck we used it on also. It might be progressive but I wonder what the initial on is.

 

[Ross L]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

IMO you shouldn't need or use alky at only 15psi I have ZERO experience on a Sy, but I use it on my GN and SVO. I always "start" at 20psi and work up from there :lol: I have the alky start at 7-10 psi and hit max at around 15-17(if I rememeber corrctly). Currently at 24psi on my GN with 26 degree's of timing (o.o knock retard) using a m15 nozzle. Remember, the alky is also a fuel and you shouldn't need more of that at 1 psi or 15psi. The alky is to supress knock and allow for more boost and timing :tup: Good luck!
Ross

 

[J-bird]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

We found the devils own to drown the truck we used it on also. It might be progressive but I wonder what the initial on is.

I was thinking the same thing! It does not seem linear. I really seems to dump the alcohol in on the starting point.

 

[Flyin Ryan]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

Did you try talking with the makers?

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/

I believe my nozzle size is m15 as well

 

[J-bird]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

I believe my nozzle size is m15 as well

how is it working on your truck, and how do you have it set up(IE start, and full)?

Thanks

 

[Tooky]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

You're turning the alcohol on WAY too early, at least in my experience. Why would you need any alcohol at 2 (or 7) PSI? Your 93 octane supports 14-15 PSI by itself. I start spraying around 10-12 and run a dual M15 nozzle SMC kit on pump speed "10" @ 93 PSI and I don't get any bog, in fact the motor revs so smooth you can't tell the alcohol is being injected.

You need to lean fuel out via the F77 Boost/MAP table, start leaning it out around 13-14 PSI and up. Watch your wideband heavily and the knock retard. Don't fall for the mistake of thinking "better too rich and be safe" because too rich alcohol will cause more problems than anything (as you're seeing) and just waste time.

To use the alcohol effectively, you must change your tune to rely upon it for fuel. :2cents:

 

[JSM]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

With progressive you can get it to come on sooner and start to kill the heat ASAP. A real progressive will let you just spray a little at the low boost #'s. It really isn't about killing knock but lowering the temps.

What I suspect the Devils own kit is doing is when it kicks on initially, it sprays WAY too much. More than alkycontrol's kit. Now I don't have any firm facts just tuning ones.

Honestly I can't wait until code59 has this feature built in.

 

[turbodig]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

Honestly I can't wait until code59 has this feature built in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... I'm on it.

 

[10secTy]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

I turn on all my systems at 2-3 psi ( I probley have over 100 systems set up like this). Its all in the tune. Get some race gas tune the airfuel ratio in the 12-1 range thru the entire boost range. Then turn on the meth and get air fuel in the 10-1 range at high boost (20+ psi). You might only be able to run 11-1 at the 15psi range. You also have to add timing or it will not run clean. On a typicall meth tune I will have 30 dgrees on timing at 15psi on a built motor. On a stock you should be in the mid to low 20's.

At 15psi on a built truck compared to a pump gas tune I can gain 100hp with a meth tune.


Nolan

 

[devilsown]

Re: Tuning for alcohol

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/technical-questions/af-100-meth-fuled-car-1004.html
You can see the different o2 with different fuels.

Our system starts with a 15% duty cycle and ramps up to where you have the max knob adjusted.

Properly tunned water/methanol kit you will need to remove a slight amount of fuel. I recommend having your engine already tuned without water/methanol and then add the kit and remove a little fuel and your set.
12gph should be a good starting point, Might even be able to run more but right now your probley got to much fuel between the meth and the gas.

We found the devils own to drown the truck we used it on also. It might be progressive but I wonder what the initial on is.

What I suspect the Devils own kit is doing is when it kicks on initially, it sprays WAY too much. More than alkycontrol's kit. Now I don't have any firm facts just tuning ones.

Its 15% pwm which is lower than alkycontrolls If your drowning at tip in then your nozzle is more A is more than likely too big or B the system is coming on to early. Spark blowout is another possablity but sounds like you got that covered now. How much timing are you running?