Trans issue

[TyGuy18]

Re: Trans issue

Got a chance to take the valve body out last night. I did not feel or observe any sticking of the plunger. Because of that I have not completely removed it yet. Hopefully pictures will help.

This is the pan as I removed it. Looks pretty clean to me.


This is the plunger fully extended. Hard to tell if it is out all the way though.


With the plunger fully extended, the leading edge of the TV valve is positioned here (denoted by red line)


This is the location of the plunger when the TV valve is centered in the Feed Passage


This is the location of the plunger when the TV valve has reached the limit of its motion


With the TV valve at the limit of its motion the trailing edge of the valve is positioned here (denoted by red line)


Does this seem accurate/correct to what you observed Dave?

Side note: Is this going to be a problem on install? Not sure if I tore this when I was pulling the valve body down or if it was already like this.

 

[TyGuy18]

Re: Trans issue

Sent Dana (Pro Built Automatics) a PM asking about getting a new valve body gasket and the "cure" for sticking valves. Hopefully he checks his inbox occasionally.

 

[DaveP]

Re: Trans issue

You should change both separator plate gaskets. I'll write a quick how-to later. (You have to deal with the check balls when you drop the plate to change the upper gasket).

The valve isn't stuck now, but it was. So it will stick again unless you "fix" it. I'll be very interested to hear what Dana suggests as the cure. His phone is 909-795-1876. I got it off the web, so he expects calls.

I've seen reports of "won't shift out of first" many times on here. And a lot of guesses (including mine) as to what it may be. But both your's and my cases here both had 150psi of line pressure at idle. It will not shift with 150psi, because that is near full-throttle TV pressure. I've had a couple of other TV-related shift issues in 700's and fixed them by installing the TransGo TV valve kit. So I'm confident we're on the right track, and working on the right component.

Give Dana a call. He's in SoCal. Pacific Time.

 

[TyGuy18]

Re: Trans issue

Got a hold of Dana this afternoon. He suggested making a few upgrades while I have the valve body off (new gaskets, separator plate, check balls, TV valve fix, larger main boost valve, a few springs, etc). Seemed to agree with Dave about the sticking TV valve being the cause of the high idle line pressure. He did ask for pressures while driving with higher RPMs but I have already taken the trans apart so I was unable to do that obviously. It was a pleasure talking to him on the phone. Clearly very knowledgeable of the trans in our trucks and seemed excited to talk about them.

While I'm waiting for the parts I will start the cleaning process. I will keep this thread updated as I make progress.

 

[TyGuy18]

Re: Trans issue

In the middle my tear down I came across this...
It appears as if the check balls above the separator plate were attempting to push past the partitions, causing dents/deformation in both the plate and the partitions. I received a new separator plate and different check balls made of Torlon from Dana. Should I be concerned about the damage to the partitions though? I tried giving Dana a call last night but it was after 5p PST so I didn't get a chance to talk to him.





Red circle indicates where these checkballs are located in reference to the case

 

[0966Sy]

Pretty common, don't worry about it. Just remove the burrs with a small file and be sure they don't stay in the case. I don't have a separator plate diagram in front of me but the transgo plate gives you options. You want the plate for aux valvebody. Going back together with it I'd leave those two check balls out, it will perform much better with the new plate. There are also 3 others that can be removed. The transgo plate can also be drilled with a larger hole for firmer shifts. I have all my notes wrote down at the house. I can try to help out more Monday. But most of the info can be found online regarding the transgo plate and check ball locations

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: Trans issue

On the occasions I spoke to Dana, he specifically suggested his separator plate because it didn't have that hard shift thus saving the hard parts. Drilling them out would be anathema.

I'd definitely speak to Dana before doing that. :2cents:

 

[DaveP]

Re: Trans issue

Dana pre-drills the TransGo plate to the way he wants it drilled to. So don't change it. Do what he says. Like ordering a custom PROM from a guy who knows what works, then changing it because it seems like a "good idea". Install everything Dana sent you, in the way he told you to do it.


To me, part of the "originality" and character of a Syclone and Typhoon is the way the transmission shifts, particularly the 1-2. That shift is a BIG part of the originality of a SyTy. Sure, it can be changed, and maybe it will "save hard parts" but I've driven 25 year old SyTy's that still have their original trans and that hard 1-2. To me, if the "SyTy 1-2" is still there after 25 years (nothing in the calibration has been changed), I like to leave it there to preserve the originality. Especially on un-dorked with trucks.

I'm about to do a Syclone trans for a guy this week. Engine, Trans nor T-case has ever been out before. I intend to leave the calibration alone. It shifts just like a Syclone should, and it will shift the same way when I'm done with it. Probably for another 25 years. I'm well known as a stickler for originality, and that 1-2 is part of it, IMO.

 

[TyGuy18]

Re: Trans issue

Thanks for the input fellas. In my talks with Dana he seems to know his stuff and his directions clearly show to install those check balls. I'll be honest and say I have no idea what function they have specifically and removing them may well be a viable option. But I feel confident with what Dana has supplied so far and I think it's in my best interest to follow his instructions at this point. So I think I will wait to talk to him tomorrow.

In the mean time, does anyone have a trick for removing the servo cover on the passenger side? Reading other forums most recommend prying to depress the cover slightly so you can release the tension on the snap ring. The only thing I can see to pry against is the downpipe or the tunnel. It's also pretty tight down there. I even had a ratchet strap pulling on my pry bar against the downpipe but the downpipe just moved and/or the trans moves on the mounts. Am I missing something?

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Trans issue

I think I used a wratcheting strip with a small socket in the middle of the cover for a little clearance to compress the servo cover. (I may have used the strap with the transmission out.) I know that I removed the servo with the trans installed in my Syclone. I didn't want to pry on try trans tunnel which would scratch and damage it.

 

[0966Sy]

Trans issue

Pair of good pliers to twist the cover while using a small pry bar or flat screwdriver to pry the cover out in a rotating sequence similar to tightening lug nuts. 180* from each position

Here is you diagram for the valvebody

 

[TyGuy18]

Re: Trans issue

I was able to finish the reassembly late Thursday night (10/6). Took it for a test drive and it was like a brand new truck! I drove it all weekend running errands and didn't have a single issue. When I get home tonight I will gather my notes and give a full write up of all the changes made and current pressures, for comparison.

With regard to the damaged partitions, Dana said that it is pretty common to see that. His suggestion was to remove the damaged material and there shouldn't be a problem and that the Torlon checkballs he supplied for the reassembly should help prevent any further damage.

Thanks everyone for all the input. :tup:

 

[Don W.]

Re: Trans issue

ATF oil passage diagrams always remind me of maze puzzles. :rotf:

 

[DaveP]

Re: Trans issue

Glad to see you were successful at fixing your trans. I'd like to see the TV pressures with the Dana Setup.

To remove the servo cover, you can use a big channel locks on the pan rail with the pan removed. Puse the cover in, remove the snap ring, rotate the cover to get the cover o-ring (green) in view in the slot at the bottom. With a hook tool, grab the o-ring and stretch it out of the slot as you twist and wiggle. I can almost always get the cover off without damaging the o-ring. Pulling on the o-ring reduces its diameter so it doesn't get caught in the snap ring groove.

I just finished a rebuild on a Syclone trans today. It had the front bushing leak. With 120K on it, it was still working fine, but I suspected the sprag may have been sub-standard. I was right, it was failing. Pieces of the 'flippers' were coming off, and the race was badly scored. There were other issues, mostly wear from the assembly being off-center. It occurred to me that the weight of all that crap wears the bottom of several bushings that hold it all on-center and in alignment. I changed a few bushings. I have my buddie's bushing driver set in my shop now. (He doesn't need it anymore). There is no way to do bushings without the proper drivers.

I did some other things he taught me to do too. This is about my 5th 4L60, and it didn't fight me at all. I'm gaining experience with them, and having the ATSG book and pdf on my tablet out in the shop helped too. I'm confident it will be just fine, even though I didn't make any changes to the programing other than a TransGo "bootstrap" kit to ward off stuck TV valves. As I posted earlier, I feel the original calibration is part of the "originality" of a Syclone, and with this being a very nice un-dorked with Sy, I wanted it to shift the same. Hopefully what I did will last another 120K.

Thanks for reading.

 

[TyGuy18]

Re: Trans issue

Sorry for the long delay. I have a pregnant wife and we have been busy. Actually going to be induced today!

Here are the pressures with the modifications that were made:

Shifter in P,N,D4,D3: Min TV=90, Max TV = 230
Shifter in Reverse: Min TV = 132 Max TV = 290
Shifter in D2, D1 (Lo) Min TV = 225, Max TV = 225

Still shifting well and I am very happy!

Here is the list of things that were changed/modified:
- (4) notches were made in the 2nd Servo steel cover for oil passage
- Added spring between steel cover and 2nd piston
- Added shims between 2nd and 4th piston
- Added spring between 4th piston and cover
- Drilled (3) holes in the VB (into bathtub, into 3-2 control valve passage, through bottom of 3-2 passage)
- 0.500 TV boost valve
- 0.296 Rev and Int boost valve
- New TV valve w/ additional spring in end to prevent sticking ("Bootstrap kit")
- New springs in 2nd Acc valve, Line bias valve and 3-2 control valve
- New separator plate with some holes plugged/opened
- All steel check balls removed, some replaced with Torlon
- New 2nd Acc assembly with new springs

Here is a side-by-side of the new and original TV valves (Original on the left; New on the right). Notice the additional spring in the end of the new style



Thanks again for all input and help with this issue :tup:

 

[DaveP]

Re: Trans issue

Those pressures aren't much different than stock. Coolness. If anything, the max TV pressure is higher. Are the WOT shifts at higher RPM now? Just curious. Most of those changes are part of a TransGo shift kit. My 400's, C6's 700's and 4l60's have all had TransGo shift kits for 40 years. Well done kits. They fix things.

I've been working on a Syclone for a guy. I did the trans complete (mentioned above) then the T-case, and pulled the engine to replace the motor mounts. While the engine was out, I checked the bearings, and rolled in a new set. Then spent 5 days cleaning stuff. What a mess. One thing about un-dorked with 25 year old trucks is that there has never been an opportunity for anyone to clean anything. No rust, but up to 3/8" of baked on grime on everything. Use $150 of solvents cleaning the mess. But I digress....

After 10 straight days, I fired it up last Friday. Lit right off, the way it should be. But it had a terrible vibration above 2,000 RPM. Turns out the torque converter was not done properly, the index "stuck" in the crank when I bolted it to the flex plate, the flex plate got bent, and the whole thing shook. I had the original TC reconditioned. Put in a new clutch plate, please. But the dude boned it.

I took the trans back out yesterday. Got a new TC and things today. Even though it only ran about 3 minutes, and I never drove it, I worried about the pump bushing, so I put the trans in the fixture on my bench and pulled the pump to replaced the bushing. The Reverse input drum came out with the pump. Long story short, I had half the trans apart again to fix this guy's f uck up. I'll get it back in and everything finalized tomorrow. Set me back 3 days. No hope of any compensation from the dude. Live and learn. I'll have to coordinate a new source for trans parts.

 

[Don W.]

Re: Trans issue

Dave, you always amaze me. Wish I lived down there. My trans prolly has a 1000 passes on it. Built Jan '09. I'm starting to detect an occasional slip in the 1-2 shift. Two race days left in the season, assuming I go to both. Will pull the pan after that but I imagine it will be coming out.

You want to do it? I could drive down there...:roll: I'd even pay you.:rotf:

 

[DaveP]

Re: Trans issue

A "slipping" 1-2 can be a couple of things not directly related to the transmission itself. I remember my 92 red/gry had a pretty bad slipping 1-2. Rick had recently gone through it, and I never had trouble with any of Rick's units, so I was skeptical of what might really be wrong. I didn't have my lift at the time, so I crawled under it, installed my pressure gauge, then drove it to my buddie's shop to put it up on his lift. After watching the gauge for the 10 mile drive, I pretty much knew what it was by the time I got there. At roughly 75% throttle, the pressure would drop from 120-ish to 50-ish during the shift, then come right back up. I added a 1/2 quart of fluid even though it was in the "normal hot" range, and the "slipping" was gone. The hard shift was uncovering the pick-up and introducing air causing a loss of line pressure.

The other maladie that causes a "slipping" 1-2 is spinning the tires. I remember a picture you posted of tire rubber behind the LF tire. I don't know if you ever figured it out, nor do I remember if I posted what caused that. You're spinning the rear tires, and the front spins at twice the speed of the rears because of the open front differential.

I could help you do your trans. Get your parts together and we can do it. I'd have to clear it with Pam, but we may be able to do it in Reno which is closer to you. It's a nice heated A/C shop, has a true metal trans bench, I'll bring up the tools I have here, and I have sources for parts and advice up there too if we run into a snag. Hotel rooms are cheap too.

 

[Don W.]

Re: Trans issue

Thanks Dave. I'll check fluid level. I was half serious, half joking but I really appreciate the offer. I have access to a shop with a lift at a racer friends shop. I'm sure we could handle it. If there is a problem the guy who built this thing is very close. I wouldn't have anyone but you or him touch it. Not even my friend. Always helps when there is a local drag strip to find out who the good builders are.

And you're correct, I do spin the tires a bit on launch but I'm all hooked up going past the tree. It's only slipped 2 maybe 3 times but definitely noticeable. There is racing Wed so I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[DaveP]

Re: Trans issue

If there is a problem the guy who built this thing is very close. I wouldn't have anyone but you or him touch it.

That was my first thought: "if it's lasted 1000 passes and 10 years, why not let the same guy do it again unless he's dead?" Which is my case, hence why I'm doing them myself now. Your guy got it right. I probably could too, but I'm still learning.

The 1-2 shift is pretty simple. The band is applied, Lo roller clutch over-runs, and it's in 2nd. Bands last forever as long as low line pressure doesn't burn them up. I was taught to always re-use the band if it didn't burn up because new bands need to "cure" (like new brake pads) which can take thousands of miles to happen especially in a quick-shifting unit that doesn't slip the band much. So you have a better shifting trans right off the bench with an already cured (good used) band.

In 1 and 2, all torque is being passed through the Forward Clutch, and the highest loading on the fwd clutch is right after the 1-2 completes. So it's possible that the fwd clutch could be slipping. My experience has been that slipping clutches and bands aren't intermittent. It doesn't come and go. Once a friction has deteriorated enough to cause it to slip, it's done, and slips every time until it fails completely. That's why I mentioned other possibilities for an intermittent slip on the 1-2.



Take care.