syclone engine build (with pics)
- Thread starter E-Rue
- Start date
you ever wanted to put your actuator somewhere it wasnt made to fit? its just metal make it do whatever you want it to.
the stock oil cooler and tranny cooler are junk.
ever noticed that really restrictive blunt 90 on the backside of the oil filter housing? no need to keep that crap.
no explanation needed on this one.
getting closer!
e
the stock oil cooler and tranny cooler are junk.
ever noticed that really restrictive blunt 90 on the backside of the oil filter housing? no need to keep that crap.
no explanation needed on this one.
getting closer!
e
bigtime
Sy-Ty Builder
e, i did the same with my actuator, then one day i found this on ebay. Pretty slick and dual port.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...&item=7936678577&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...&item=7936678577&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT
TurboManiacal
Donating Member
Ummm...E...dude...I'm sorry. When you IM'd me the other night I didn't fully catch on.
If that is your Syclone and that is where I know it to be...then you were doing some Testing and Tuning.
What was the result?
Were you running 8ths or full qtrs?
If that is your Syclone and that is where I know it to be...then you were doing some Testing and Tuning.
What was the result?
Were you running 8ths or full qtrs?
thanks for the interest guys. so far the tune is a very slow going process. in the future, we want to offer this build to customers with programming included, so im going thru a ton of trouble to get the tune perfect on it. right now its tuned up to about 8psi. iv had some setbacks.... things dont always go as planned. the electric cooling fan exploded last week. that was fun, got another one installed now with custom made aluminum brackets..... if this one explodes it wont damage the radiator. so far iv had to take a lot of the bolts back out and locktight them in place, as they all seem to be backing themselves out. im thinking its an issue with the strong exhaust note...... resonates around 2100 RPM kinda like a 5.0 mustang does. couple weeks ago i lost 2 tranny bolts (tranny to block) and this week the entire intake plenum came loose on me. i red locktighted the tranny bolts and several other things that i thought might try to come off. and i used blue locktight on the intake manifold. hopefully i can focus, and get back on tuning now, instead of all these little bugg-a-boos that i didnt plan on taking so much of my time.
e
e
ghettosled
SYTY SUPERSTORE
im guessing the battery is lowered from the stock location.
Re: syclone engine build (with pics)
i just took the stock battery tray and mounted it lower into the fender well so that the intake would go over top of it........but thats easy crap, now for the good stuff.
TUNING!
its no secret that lots of people in the past have built monster motors and got discouraged when they couldnt tune them, and quit, and went home with their tail between their legs. sold off the motors and in some cases sold off the trucks as well. things progress because we push the limits of whats available for us out there and because we push each other into doing things that havnt really been done before. since ive been here iv seen syclones go from 11's to 10's and now to 9's..... this stuff doesnt happen cause we give up and go home. well after finishing my motor i ran it for a while and ran into several snags that nearly sent me to the mad house. so if your wondering where i have been, and whats been going on at turbotime, here is the big fat update.... and if your not interested and like country music thats cool too. anywho.... the first of several issues was after i had a rough tune on the sy and was playing with it a bit. truck ran pretty decent adn had 2 passes on getting the VE tables right. it idled adn cruised pretty decent. i have a BBK aftermarket TB with huge dual 58mm openings. i always thought it was a great complement to the massive amounts of port work that were done to this motor and didnt mind dropping the $300. well after shooting past my neighbors house at 23psi i heard a POP. i went home assuming i had blown off an intercooler pipe, but everything was clearly in place and nothing was a mis. restarted truck and it didnt want to run. my heart sank. acted like it had a vacume leak. after fighting with it for a while, i gave up and went inside to drown myself with beer. spent about 5 days being a PITA to everyone because i thought i had damaged something in my brand new motor that i spent a year building. after i had some warmer weather i started going thru everything trying to diagnose the issue. started with a compression test, then moved to a radiator pressure test..... double checked all the intake bolts (i had the upper intake vibrate loose on me one time... dont even get me started about how retarted that was) everything still reading fine. after a few more days of warm weather i thought id try pressurizing the intake to make sure something wierd was leaking. BAM intake wouldnt hold more than 2-3 psi. took me about 20 min of trying to figure out what in the world i had found till i saw the smallest little thing..... tiny little thing. kinda surprised i even saw it all. the aftermarket TB is machined for vacume ports and since the openings are so uch larger the real estate gets pretty thin. what i found is gonna make you laugh..... it turns out the drill used to pilot the steel sleeve for the large vacume line by the TPS sensor was a little close to the hole drilled for mounting the TB to the intake. so once i hit 23psi, the 2 openings became connected, by a hole thats roughly 1/8" x 1/4". basically, the TB was leaking internally into the bolt hole which held it to the manifold. and that didnt seal because i have a bracket that holds the intake pipe on infront of the bolt. anywho.... after changing the TB for a stocker everything went back to the way it was and i went back to tuning........
this is where i hit stumbling block #2
(continued in next post because im afraid to write too much into one window just incase this crazy thing crashes on me)
i just took the stock battery tray and mounted it lower into the fender well so that the intake would go over top of it........but thats easy crap, now for the good stuff.
TUNING!
its no secret that lots of people in the past have built monster motors and got discouraged when they couldnt tune them, and quit, and went home with their tail between their legs. sold off the motors and in some cases sold off the trucks as well. things progress because we push the limits of whats available for us out there and because we push each other into doing things that havnt really been done before. since ive been here iv seen syclones go from 11's to 10's and now to 9's..... this stuff doesnt happen cause we give up and go home. well after finishing my motor i ran it for a while and ran into several snags that nearly sent me to the mad house. so if your wondering where i have been, and whats been going on at turbotime, here is the big fat update.... and if your not interested and like country music thats cool too. anywho.... the first of several issues was after i had a rough tune on the sy and was playing with it a bit. truck ran pretty decent adn had 2 passes on getting the VE tables right. it idled adn cruised pretty decent. i have a BBK aftermarket TB with huge dual 58mm openings. i always thought it was a great complement to the massive amounts of port work that were done to this motor and didnt mind dropping the $300. well after shooting past my neighbors house at 23psi i heard a POP. i went home assuming i had blown off an intercooler pipe, but everything was clearly in place and nothing was a mis. restarted truck and it didnt want to run. my heart sank. acted like it had a vacume leak. after fighting with it for a while, i gave up and went inside to drown myself with beer. spent about 5 days being a PITA to everyone because i thought i had damaged something in my brand new motor that i spent a year building. after i had some warmer weather i started going thru everything trying to diagnose the issue. started with a compression test, then moved to a radiator pressure test..... double checked all the intake bolts (i had the upper intake vibrate loose on me one time... dont even get me started about how retarted that was) everything still reading fine. after a few more days of warm weather i thought id try pressurizing the intake to make sure something wierd was leaking. BAM intake wouldnt hold more than 2-3 psi. took me about 20 min of trying to figure out what in the world i had found till i saw the smallest little thing..... tiny little thing. kinda surprised i even saw it all. the aftermarket TB is machined for vacume ports and since the openings are so uch larger the real estate gets pretty thin. what i found is gonna make you laugh..... it turns out the drill used to pilot the steel sleeve for the large vacume line by the TPS sensor was a little close to the hole drilled for mounting the TB to the intake. so once i hit 23psi, the 2 openings became connected, by a hole thats roughly 1/8" x 1/4". basically, the TB was leaking internally into the bolt hole which held it to the manifold. and that didnt seal because i have a bracket that holds the intake pipe on infront of the bolt. anywho.... after changing the TB for a stocker everything went back to the way it was and i went back to tuning........
this is where i hit stumbling block #2
(continued in next post because im afraid to write too much into one window just incase this crazy thing crashes on me)
Re: syclone engine build (with pics)
ok back to stumbling block #2.......
the AE fueling requirements for this motor were far from what the 7449 ECU wanted to give me. after talking to green and nolan both (which i really appreciate the advise guys) i accepted the idea that i just hadnt tried hard enough, and the combination of AE i had chosen wasnt working, because i didnt know what i was doing. after several weeks of this, i got aggravated again and took some time off from the syclone. once i came back with the warm spring weather and a fresh head, i started really studdying my datamaster files and table variables and found that i wasnt crazy at all..... i studdyied the changes in the fueling tables against what they did to the fuel curve in datamaster and became very familiar with what changes gave what results (in the AE tables) the problem that i ran into was TIMING. and i dont mean ignition timing. it seemed like the injectors were firing late. to late to compensate for a quick change in TPS or in MAP. a quick change in either TPS or in MAP would immediately be followed by a lean spike that resulted in a hesitation from the motor. well after adding fuel in the AE MAP and also the AE TPS tables what i found was a lean spike immediately followed by a rich spike. the ECU was doing what it was susposed to, adn the changes i made in the fueling tables were working..... only they were working about 1-2 datamaster frames behind the actual event. i taked to phillip long at length and explained to him what it was doing, and he made a call to a local tuning guru and reported back about the injector delay associated with going to a much larger injector. as it turns out going from a very small injector to a very large injector will cause timing issues. in the case of tuning hondas going from 100cc to 1000cc results in drivability so bad that you cant even drive it around without it spitting and stumbling when your on and off the throttle. this was interesting information and got me started on the search for an ECU variable that would allow me to change the injector timing like some of the aftermarket ECU's (FAST, BIGSTUFF) after getting in touch with bruce plecan (who broke down the entire assembly code for the 7449 ECU) i foundthere was no such variable and that i needed to go back and try harder because i wasnt making the right changes. jim sloan found a table that susposedly compensated for injector timeing based on voltage, but what i later found out, is that this table only lenghtens the pulswidth to compensate rather than actually affecting injector timing. it has nothing to do with injector timing. changing this table only makes it richer or leaner, but absolutely will not affect how quickly the ECU reacts to an event. so once again i was back on the drawing board trying to find the solution........... i knew that this was a race motor and that it reacted much faster than a stocker. in fact its like a night and day difference. kinda jumps when you feather the gas. after thinking more about it it dawned on me that going to larger injectors would possibly slow down the reaction, but not nearly in the amount that i was seeing (roughly 3ms in datamaster) so basically it was mostly or all because of all the precision machining and flow bench work we did. we had essentually created soemthing that was better and more efficient than a normal motor, but only ended up hurting us because we couldnt tune for the rapid changes in fueling needed during rapid changes in MAP or TPS.
this is where it gets good..... and yes i promise there is a point to my incessant rambling...... (next post)
ok back to stumbling block #2.......
the AE fueling requirements for this motor were far from what the 7449 ECU wanted to give me. after talking to green and nolan both (which i really appreciate the advise guys) i accepted the idea that i just hadnt tried hard enough, and the combination of AE i had chosen wasnt working, because i didnt know what i was doing. after several weeks of this, i got aggravated again and took some time off from the syclone. once i came back with the warm spring weather and a fresh head, i started really studdying my datamaster files and table variables and found that i wasnt crazy at all..... i studdyied the changes in the fueling tables against what they did to the fuel curve in datamaster and became very familiar with what changes gave what results (in the AE tables) the problem that i ran into was TIMING. and i dont mean ignition timing. it seemed like the injectors were firing late. to late to compensate for a quick change in TPS or in MAP. a quick change in either TPS or in MAP would immediately be followed by a lean spike that resulted in a hesitation from the motor. well after adding fuel in the AE MAP and also the AE TPS tables what i found was a lean spike immediately followed by a rich spike. the ECU was doing what it was susposed to, adn the changes i made in the fueling tables were working..... only they were working about 1-2 datamaster frames behind the actual event. i taked to phillip long at length and explained to him what it was doing, and he made a call to a local tuning guru and reported back about the injector delay associated with going to a much larger injector. as it turns out going from a very small injector to a very large injector will cause timing issues. in the case of tuning hondas going from 100cc to 1000cc results in drivability so bad that you cant even drive it around without it spitting and stumbling when your on and off the throttle. this was interesting information and got me started on the search for an ECU variable that would allow me to change the injector timing like some of the aftermarket ECU's (FAST, BIGSTUFF) after getting in touch with bruce plecan (who broke down the entire assembly code for the 7449 ECU) i foundthere was no such variable and that i needed to go back and try harder because i wasnt making the right changes. jim sloan found a table that susposedly compensated for injector timeing based on voltage, but what i later found out, is that this table only lenghtens the pulswidth to compensate rather than actually affecting injector timing. it has nothing to do with injector timing. changing this table only makes it richer or leaner, but absolutely will not affect how quickly the ECU reacts to an event. so once again i was back on the drawing board trying to find the solution........... i knew that this was a race motor and that it reacted much faster than a stocker. in fact its like a night and day difference. kinda jumps when you feather the gas. after thinking more about it it dawned on me that going to larger injectors would possibly slow down the reaction, but not nearly in the amount that i was seeing (roughly 3ms in datamaster) so basically it was mostly or all because of all the precision machining and flow bench work we did. we had essentually created soemthing that was better and more efficient than a normal motor, but only ended up hurting us because we couldnt tune for the rapid changes in fueling needed during rapid changes in MAP or TPS.
this is where it gets good..... and yes i promise there is a point to my incessant rambling...... (next post)
Re: syclone engine build (with pics)
of all the people in the world, jeff freaking scott starts asking me about a couple of obscure 7449 tables that arnt usually used in tuning. so i really kinda owe the find, to jeff, or at least the idea anyway..... but basically there are 2 tables.
0x033B AE delta TPS threshold
what this table does is this: it requires the ECU to wait till the change in TPS is above the value given to deliver AE fueling based on a change in TPS. well at first glance you assume its to keep the AE fueling from richening up a very small change in TPS that doesnt need it. in fact thats not what the table is for at all. this table affects AE TPS injector timing be requiring the ECU to wait till the event is large enough to meet the requirement of the setting. the AE table still has plenty of resolution for changes even if you lower this threshold. so after modifying this table from the value of 1.9 (meaning the change in TPS has to be at least 1.9%) to a value of 1.17 we started to be able to perfectly dial in the on off throttle tip in stuff to where it is now. perfect.
0x008 AE delta MAP threshold
this table is very similar to the other table in the way it acts with a few small exceptions. first off the value entered in here seems pretty small already. its 3.6kpa. so the ECU has to see a change of 3.6kpa in the MAP before it will deliver any AE MAP fueling. the catch is this..... theresanother table directly below this one that doubles this value based on a TPS setting. so now your waiting for a change of 7.2 KPA before the ECU is allowed to deliver any AE MAP fueling. droping this value to half its original value allowed me to center the lean spike i was getting from the rapid change in MAP, directly over the rich spike that followed from the ECU trying to deliver fuel for the rapid change in MAP. after the change in this table with no additional tuning, my lean spikes, during TC lockup and 3/4 shift under acceleration, went from 1.5 points of AFR to .5 points of AFR. while a change in .5 AFR points is still not perfect, its definately livable, and totally unnoticable unless your reading datamaster.
so now the syclone is tuned really well, and it only needs WOTtuning to be totally finished. the break in miles are done, and the fluid changes are done. time to have some fun. stay tuned.
in the mean while things have been rolling on at turbotime. we have finished phillip longs motor (which is just like mine) and he has it up and running using my bin as a startup file. so far his is really coming together MUCH faster than mine. i guess having most of the mistakes made by someone else, so that you know what not to do, helps a lot. i think he will be runnign some impressive times shortly. i mean really its phillip long..... even if we sucked at building motors hed still run 10's. also this friday we should have our first DSM motor rolling out of the shop. we are hoping for 600HP + but id rather let the dyno tell ya than internet bench-race, so i wont make promises about what it will and wont do. its a fully built motor with heavy head work, sheetmetal intake, GT35R turbo, 2.4 liter big bore stroker bottom end....... grrrrr im getting distracted. this was a post about my syclone, so ill try to stay on task. getting tired, so ill talk more later.
e
of all the people in the world, jeff freaking scott starts asking me about a couple of obscure 7449 tables that arnt usually used in tuning. so i really kinda owe the find, to jeff, or at least the idea anyway..... but basically there are 2 tables.
0x033B AE delta TPS threshold
what this table does is this: it requires the ECU to wait till the change in TPS is above the value given to deliver AE fueling based on a change in TPS. well at first glance you assume its to keep the AE fueling from richening up a very small change in TPS that doesnt need it. in fact thats not what the table is for at all. this table affects AE TPS injector timing be requiring the ECU to wait till the event is large enough to meet the requirement of the setting. the AE table still has plenty of resolution for changes even if you lower this threshold. so after modifying this table from the value of 1.9 (meaning the change in TPS has to be at least 1.9%) to a value of 1.17 we started to be able to perfectly dial in the on off throttle tip in stuff to where it is now. perfect.
0x008 AE delta MAP threshold
this table is very similar to the other table in the way it acts with a few small exceptions. first off the value entered in here seems pretty small already. its 3.6kpa. so the ECU has to see a change of 3.6kpa in the MAP before it will deliver any AE MAP fueling. the catch is this..... theresanother table directly below this one that doubles this value based on a TPS setting. so now your waiting for a change of 7.2 KPA before the ECU is allowed to deliver any AE MAP fueling. droping this value to half its original value allowed me to center the lean spike i was getting from the rapid change in MAP, directly over the rich spike that followed from the ECU trying to deliver fuel for the rapid change in MAP. after the change in this table with no additional tuning, my lean spikes, during TC lockup and 3/4 shift under acceleration, went from 1.5 points of AFR to .5 points of AFR. while a change in .5 AFR points is still not perfect, its definately livable, and totally unnoticable unless your reading datamaster.
so now the syclone is tuned really well, and it only needs WOTtuning to be totally finished. the break in miles are done, and the fluid changes are done. time to have some fun. stay tuned.
in the mean while things have been rolling on at turbotime. we have finished phillip longs motor (which is just like mine) and he has it up and running using my bin as a startup file. so far his is really coming together MUCH faster than mine. i guess having most of the mistakes made by someone else, so that you know what not to do, helps a lot. i think he will be runnign some impressive times shortly. i mean really its phillip long..... even if we sucked at building motors hed still run 10's. also this friday we should have our first DSM motor rolling out of the shop. we are hoping for 600HP + but id rather let the dyno tell ya than internet bench-race, so i wont make promises about what it will and wont do. its a fully built motor with heavy head work, sheetmetal intake, GT35R turbo, 2.4 liter big bore stroker bottom end....... grrrrr im getting distracted. this was a post about my syclone, so ill try to stay on task. getting tired, so ill talk more later.
e