The Devils Own Chariot
Active member
Re: Stock turbo after 20psi
Yeah I know you have to tune a stand alone.
turbodig said:
Yeah I know you have to tune a stand alone.
Stock turbo after 20psi
- Thread starter The Devils Own Chariot
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JSM
Active member
Re: Stock turbo after 20psi
I find it ironic when people don't want to tune a stock chip, complain about so and so's chip didn't work so they go stand alone. Granted stand alone doesn't have a "chip" but I also suspect a random tune emailed for a stand alone will work any better than an off the shelf chip.
Both will need tuned. No way around.
Tuning is the cheapest bang for the buck also.
I find it ironic when people don't want to tune a stock chip, complain about so and so's chip didn't work so they go stand alone. Granted stand alone doesn't have a "chip" but I also suspect a random tune emailed for a stand alone will work any better than an off the shelf chip.
Both will need tuned. No way around.
Tuning is the cheapest bang for the buck also.
The Devils Own Chariot
Active member
Re: Stock turbo after 20psi
I agree. I would say I have a pretty good tune with my current setup. Im pretty confident Im in the 12's. I have beaten vehicles that were suposably in the 12's. Datamaster says 12's. 0-60 is 4 seconds flat.
One thing I am confused about as far as tuning. Say you did send datamaster files back and forth to Nollan. How is he going to know what chip to burn me depending on my alky settings? How is he going to know Im adding to much or adding it too early or if I need to turn the gain up. All he can see is what the truck is doing and not so much how I have the alky set.
I think its rather easy to tune with alky. Its all just trial and error while making sure you stay out of the gas if you see KR. Whats so wrong with that? Im just asking.
TwinTurboV8Ty said:
I agree. I would say I have a pretty good tune with my current setup. Im pretty confident Im in the 12's. I have beaten vehicles that were suposably in the 12's. Datamaster says 12's. 0-60 is 4 seconds flat.
One thing I am confused about as far as tuning. Say you did send datamaster files back and forth to Nollan. How is he going to know what chip to burn me depending on my alky settings? How is he going to know Im adding to much or adding it too early or if I need to turn the gain up. All he can see is what the truck is doing and not so much how I have the alky set.
I think its rather easy to tune with alky. Its all just trial and error while making sure you stay out of the gas if you see KR. Whats so wrong with that? Im just asking.
JSM
Active member
Re: Stock turbo after 20psi
Nolan or any tuner is first going to either send you a chip to get started, or want a copy of the chip your currently running. That will be the baseline.
I would say any syty tuner is going to require you to have a wideband also. That data is so valuable it is hard to tune without.
So said chip is installed, you make a datamaster run, "tuner" will look over the file and see what the AFR's are doing, knock, how it idles, IAC counts, etc. Based on experience the tuner will make some changes, send a new chip/file to you to use/try and process starts again.
It might only take 5 runs to get right, might take 100. I would also think most tuners will start without alky (that is what I do anyways), then have it slowly turned on and eventually max what the motor can handle out.
Now this process will occur with a tuner being someone else, or yourself doing it.
Nolan or any tuner is first going to either send you a chip to get started, or want a copy of the chip your currently running. That will be the baseline.
I would say any syty tuner is going to require you to have a wideband also. That data is so valuable it is hard to tune without.
So said chip is installed, you make a datamaster run, "tuner" will look over the file and see what the AFR's are doing, knock, how it idles, IAC counts, etc. Based on experience the tuner will make some changes, send a new chip/file to you to use/try and process starts again.
It might only take 5 runs to get right, might take 100. I would also think most tuners will start without alky (that is what I do anyways), then have it slowly turned on and eventually max what the motor can handle out.
Now this process will occur with a tuner being someone else, or yourself doing it.
The Devils Own Chariot
Active member
Re: Stock turbo after 20psi
OK that makes sense. Im starting to see the light
Another goofy question for ya. Whats wrong with an exhaust temp gauge? A wideband goes off of heat also. I dont need to look at numbers or a red, yellow or green light to tell me whats going on. I can see exactly what fuel is doing off my temp gauge. A good run is between 1000 deg and 1100 deg. Thats telling me Im running enough fuel. If it gets hotter Im running not enough alky or too much. I also have datamaster there for reassurance. I have my temp probe right after the O2 sensor on the DP. Is there something wrong with the way Im doing this? Its been working good so far. Again just asking
OK that makes sense. Im starting to see the light
Another goofy question for ya. Whats wrong with an exhaust temp gauge? A wideband goes off of heat also. I dont need to look at numbers or a red, yellow or green light to tell me whats going on. I can see exactly what fuel is doing off my temp gauge. A good run is between 1000 deg and 1100 deg. Thats telling me Im running enough fuel. If it gets hotter Im running not enough alky or too much. I also have datamaster there for reassurance. I have my temp probe right after the O2 sensor on the DP. Is there something wrong with the way Im doing this? Its been working good so far. Again just asking
Six-is-Enough
Use to do a little Boost
Re: Stock turbo after 20psi
Code 59 has patches availiable to support most of the wide ban o2's. So when you data log you can see exactly what was going on when. Instead of trying to watch exhaust temp, boost gauge, knock retard, and Drive.
Plus the wide ban is more accurate. the exhaust temp gauge can be fooled by unburnt fuel/methanol.:2cents:
OK that makes sense. Im starting to see the light
Another goofy question for ya. Whats wrong with an exhaust temp gauge? A wideband goes off of heat also. I dont need to look at numbers or a red, yellow or green light to tell me whats going on. I can see exactly what fuel is doing off my temp gauge. A good run is between 1000 deg and 1100 deg. Thats telling me Im running enough fuel. If it gets hotter Im running not enough alky or too much. I also have datamaster there for reassurance. I have my temp probe right after the O2 sensor on the DP. Is there something wrong with the way Im doing this? Its been working good so far. Again just asking
Code 59 has patches availiable to support most of the wide ban o2's. So when you data log you can see exactly what was going on when. Instead of trying to watch exhaust temp, boost gauge, knock retard, and Drive.
Plus the wide ban is more accurate. the exhaust temp gauge can be fooled by unburnt fuel/methanol.:2cents:
The Devils Own Chariot
Active member
Re: Stock turbo after 20psi
ok IC. I feel like such a Rookie
ok IC. I feel like such a Rookie
The Devils Own Chariot
Active member
Re: Stock turbo after 20psi
Got a 12.7 today. It still feels like something is holding it back. I have been a lot faster with it. The bottom end does not feel as good as it should. When I shift into overdrive at the top my my 3rd gear is when it starts to soar.
It did also spike to 25 psi but the WG never holds it there.
What do you guys see? Nothing jumps out at me.
Got a 12.7 today. It still feels like something is holding it back. I have been a lot faster with it. The bottom end does not feel as good as it should. When I shift into overdrive at the top my my 3rd gear is when it starts to soar.
It did also spike to 25 psi but the WG never holds it there.
What do you guys see? Nothing jumps out at me.
Tooky
Serious about performance
Re: Stock turbo after 20psi
Another one bitten by the "BARO Bug"!!! Look in the upper right corner. BARO 57.2!! I just talked about this a week ago in another post. I also explain it on my Tuner's Guide to DataMaster at www.powertuneplus.com.
You weren't at 25 PSI. The BARO Bug throws everything off including the tune. You gotta know when to trust your datalog and when NOT to trust it.
Your boost control looks goofy and wavy like a roller coaster, I've posted a lot about that in the past too (thats exactly how my truck was when I used the electronic stock control, it sucked!). My solution was to use a $40 Boostvalve.com controller. Yeah you lose the Ultimate pushbutton control but it always worked like shit for me in the first place, so no big loss there. The Boostvalve was one of the *ONLY* mods I ever did that truly bolted on and IMMEDIATELY made a night and day difference without any additional "gotchas".
The topic of this thread was about going past 20 PSI on the stock turbo. It's not just that you're heating up the air. You have to think about the exhaust side too. There's a point of diminishing returns and then a point where you are harming yourself more than you are helping (as boost continues to rise). The exhaust backpressure starts to choke the turbine, and when the exhaust valve opens, you could get exhaust bursting backwards into the cylinder (briefly). The turbine designs have a lot to do with the aerodynamics of the fins. It's sort of like a camshaft. A cam that is good from 3000-6000 is going to drop off at higher RPM. If you keep winding it out to 8000 RPM it will absolutely choke the motor and kill horsepower dramatically. No way around it. Turbos are the same way in my experience. A turbo is optimal in certain range (this is what Compressor Maps are for). If a turbo were good at higher boost it would have to be trading off power at low boost (relatively speaking), just like a camshaft. You probably already knew that a race cam (designed to make great power at high RPM) has a tradeoff of making WEAK power at LOW RPM. There are no "magic" parts that just make more power everywhere with no tradeoffs or compromises/drawbacks. Going fast is ALL about managing your tradeoffs to find the best balance for your goals.
For me the limit of my stock motor, stock turbo was 20 PSI on my autometer gauge. But keep in mind the differences in altitude, differences in boost gauges (I have had several Autometer gauges go bad up to 2-4 PSI off), differences in Datamaster readings, MAP sensors, and slight differences even across stock engines and stock turbos. (perhaps someone has a slightly tight/loose timing chain, advanced/retarded cam, distributor timing, better/worse ring seal/compression, etc.) So some people have found 18 PSI to be the fast limit of their stock turbos and others higher than 20 PSI.
But if your fastest DM QMC is a 12.7 @ 104 then you still have a lot left in your stock turbo IMO. I ran 13.01 @ 102 with a stock chip, and 12.7 on an ATR Pitbull chip. It seems like everyone who really worked out all the bugs in their stock trucks were able to reach mid 12s or better on high boost with high octane and good launches/traction. I'm sure I could name 5-10 trucks like that.
I bet you are still running pretty rich at WOT too, and could gain more power by leaning it out via an alky chip tune.
Another one bitten by the "BARO Bug"!!! Look in the upper right corner. BARO 57.2!! I just talked about this a week ago in another post. I also explain it on my Tuner's Guide to DataMaster at www.powertuneplus.com.
You weren't at 25 PSI. The BARO Bug throws everything off including the tune. You gotta know when to trust your datalog and when NOT to trust it.
Your boost control looks goofy and wavy like a roller coaster, I've posted a lot about that in the past too (thats exactly how my truck was when I used the electronic stock control, it sucked!). My solution was to use a $40 Boostvalve.com controller. Yeah you lose the Ultimate pushbutton control but it always worked like shit for me in the first place, so no big loss there. The Boostvalve was one of the *ONLY* mods I ever did that truly bolted on and IMMEDIATELY made a night and day difference without any additional "gotchas".
The topic of this thread was about going past 20 PSI on the stock turbo. It's not just that you're heating up the air. You have to think about the exhaust side too. There's a point of diminishing returns and then a point where you are harming yourself more than you are helping (as boost continues to rise). The exhaust backpressure starts to choke the turbine, and when the exhaust valve opens, you could get exhaust bursting backwards into the cylinder (briefly). The turbine designs have a lot to do with the aerodynamics of the fins. It's sort of like a camshaft. A cam that is good from 3000-6000 is going to drop off at higher RPM. If you keep winding it out to 8000 RPM it will absolutely choke the motor and kill horsepower dramatically. No way around it. Turbos are the same way in my experience. A turbo is optimal in certain range (this is what Compressor Maps are for). If a turbo were good at higher boost it would have to be trading off power at low boost (relatively speaking), just like a camshaft. You probably already knew that a race cam (designed to make great power at high RPM) has a tradeoff of making WEAK power at LOW RPM. There are no "magic" parts that just make more power everywhere with no tradeoffs or compromises/drawbacks. Going fast is ALL about managing your tradeoffs to find the best balance for your goals.
For me the limit of my stock motor, stock turbo was 20 PSI on my autometer gauge. But keep in mind the differences in altitude, differences in boost gauges (I have had several Autometer gauges go bad up to 2-4 PSI off), differences in Datamaster readings, MAP sensors, and slight differences even across stock engines and stock turbos. (perhaps someone has a slightly tight/loose timing chain, advanced/retarded cam, distributor timing, better/worse ring seal/compression, etc.) So some people have found 18 PSI to be the fast limit of their stock turbos and others higher than 20 PSI.
But if your fastest DM QMC is a 12.7 @ 104 then you still have a lot left in your stock turbo IMO. I ran 13.01 @ 102 with a stock chip, and 12.7 on an ATR Pitbull chip. It seems like everyone who really worked out all the bugs in their stock trucks were able to reach mid 12s or better on high boost with high octane and good launches/traction. I'm sure I could name 5-10 trucks like that.
I bet you are still running pretty rich at WOT too, and could gain more power by leaning it out via an alky chip tune.
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TYTILIDIE
METH HEAD
Re: Stock turbo after 20psi
I agree with this 100%. When I got my Greddy, (EBC), I spent about an hour tuning it and got a near perfect straight line across the entire run. Got mine used but it was well worth the $, and you can change it when ever you want from inside the truck.
I agree with this 100%. When I got my Greddy, (EBC), I spent about an hour tuning it and got a near perfect straight line across the entire run. Got mine used but it was well worth the $, and you can change it when ever you want from inside the truck.
The Devils Own Chariot
Active member
Re: Stock turbo after 20psi
I know I mentioned that it seemed like something was holding me back. I found my intercooler had a huge air pocket in it from refilling it. It was not circulating the coolant over half the time. I quenched the air out and it flows steadily now. It will be nice to see how much that helps. Thank goodness for alky cooling intake temps down so I didnt pop the motor.
I know I mentioned that it seemed like something was holding me back. I found my intercooler had a huge air pocket in it from refilling it. It was not circulating the coolant over half the time. I quenched the air out and it flows steadily now. It will be nice to see how much that helps. Thank goodness for alky cooling intake temps down so I didnt pop the motor.
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