Setting Timing Issue

M

Mark@TuckerPerformance

New member
Hello, I am brand new to this forum, but am not really new to the Syclone/Typhoon scene. But I am having a little issues with my 1991 Syclone.

I just installed a new distributor from White's Performance. I was running MSD distributor before this distributor and the pickup went bad on it and the pickup/module was on back order for a couple of months so I decided to just buy this new distributor to get the truck back going. And when the parts come off of back order, I will have a back up distributor.

So I got it installed, and trying to setting the timing on it. So I disconnected the EST Bypass connector under the passenger side dash. And begin to set the timing to zero on the balancer, it was at 20° on the balancer when I started, so I begin to turn the distributor down to zero, when I got just under 10° on the balancer the engine started running rough and dropped rpm down to about 500rpm (running real rough) and at that time that it dropped rpm and started running rough the balancer was showing about -10°. So I turned the distributor back to advance it some, then the rpms went up kinda high (1400 rpm) and showed 20° again then it started idle down and dropped to about 18°. So I start to retard distributor real slow and as soon as I get close to 10°, the rpms drop and run rough (500rpms) ans show -10°. I am just trying to set it to zero and can't get it there.

My desired idle is 1,000 rpm. I am running a MSD coil, MSD 6L Box, MSD Wires.

I have tried setting the distributor to zero with the MSD 6L box hooked up and disconnected. Either way different make a difference.

Looking for advice/tips to get this thing figured out. I was told that the timing should not advance when the bypass connector is disconnected. But that doesn't seem to be correct by the way my truck is acting.

I have also confirmed that the balancer is correct. I used a piston stop on Cyl 1 and made sure that it was at TDC (0°) on the balancer.
 
M

Mark@TuckerPerformance

New member
Re: Setting Timing Issue

Yes, using correct mark. I am running the ATI Balancer. So it is numbered completely around the entire pulley. So no mistake of reading the wrong mark as long as the pulley is installed correctly. Which I did verify.
 
dgoodhue

dgoodhue

BuSTeD 4.3
Re: Setting Timing Issue

I would assume that if your idle is set to 1000rpm that you have an aggressive camshaft and build. The engine just might not like idling with 0 degrees of timing. Did you tune your truck or was it done by a tuner?

If you did the tuning your self, in the tune I would set the timing in the idle area rpm/loads cell to around 25 degrees and set the timing with the connector on. I would just verify it with a scan tool that idle timing matches the timing light.

If you didn't do the tuning, you can also look at a scan tool and see what the ECM is commanding for idle and go back and forth between the laptop and the timing light to get them to match. The ECM might change the idle timing because as the timing is changed, it could affect the load of the engine or rpm the engine idles at. (ie switching between cells).
 
M

Mark@TuckerPerformance

New member
Re: Setting Timing Issue

Yes, it is a decently aggressive build.

As for the tuning, it was done by a tuner when I was back in Tennessee. I am not in Florida. And I tuned my Typhoon I got when I moved down here. But it is nowhere near the power of the Syclone.

So just match the distributor timing to what I record from the DataMaster while the truck is idling? Do this while the Bypass Connector is plugged in?

Thank you
 
Loeryder

Loeryder

New member
Re: Setting Timing Issue

Yes, you can correlate the spark advance the ECM is commanding and read that at the balancer when the tan timing connector is connected.
Some of the nicer timing lights will have an advance knob on them to dial in the amount you want to match on.
I use a light to get it close but I still listen to the motor idle and give it a micro twist each direction to see what the motor likes better.
 
Aeroking

Aeroking

e.i.
Re: Setting Timing Issue

Nobody mentioned it, but you should disconnect the MSD box when you are setting the initial timing. One less thing to cause a false reading.

I also use the adjustable timing gun method. I set all my spark cells for 30 in the tune, then adjust my gun to match. If your using a chip, then hookup the scanner as mentioned, and set your gun to it.

Good luck.
 
M

Mark@TuckerPerformance

New member
Re: Setting Timing Issue

Loeryder said:
Yes, you can correlate the spark advance the ECM is commanding and read that at the balancer when the tan timing connector is connected.
Some of the nicer timing lights will have an advance knob on them to dial in the amount you want to match on.
I use a light to get it close but I still listen to the motor idle and give it a micro twist each direction to see what the motor likes better.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I am going to do this today. I do have a new timing light that I can control advance with.
 
M

Mark@TuckerPerformance

New member
Re: Setting Timing Issue

Aeroking said:
Nobody mentioned it, but you should disconnect the MSD box when you are setting the initial timing. One less thing to cause a false reading.

I also use the adjustable timing gun method. I set all my spark cells for 30 in the tune, then adjust my gun to match. If your using a chip, then hookup the scanner as mentioned, and set your gun to it.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the advice, but this was stated in my original post that I have tried with MSD box hooked up and unhooked. And it didn't make any difference. But I am going to leave it disconnected when I set the timing today. And plug it in when all done.

Thanks
 
M

Mark@TuckerPerformance

New member
Re: Setting Timing Issue

Well I set the timing on the distributor as close as possible to what the ignition timing was on my DataMaster. It did seem to idle and start up good. And also seemed to drive pretty good. So I strapped it down to the dyno and these are the results.



The blue graph was done a couple weeks before replacing the distributor. Was getting it ready to run at the track and went out to move it out of the shop and it just would turn over forever. And found I was not getting spark.

The red graph was just a couple of minutes ago. So all that has changed from then to now is, the new distributor and set the timing like a couple of you recommended me to. The MSD Box is hooked back up.

I have a fresh 10 gallons of 110 octane fuel in the tank. Same boost level as before. I am not so much upset about peak numbers being lower. More concerned about power dropping off so fast after peak. Was not like this before the new distributor.
 
M

Mark@TuckerPerformance

New member
Re: Setting Timing Issue

So to put the picture into words.

Before MSD distributor went bad. The truck was making 629awhp @ 4050rpms and held 600awhp until 5000rpms, and drop to a minimum of 500awhp by 5500rpms.

And now with the new distributor that I bought from White's Performance(which looks exactly the same as the MSD Distributor besides it only cost $50). The truck made 598awhp @4200 and immediately started to drop power, it was 500 @ 4500, 450 @ 5000, and 400 @ 5500.

Boost is not dropping off, AFR is perfect(mirror image of AFR from recorded log from before distributor going bad), max knock retard of 1.8* on this 85*F day with the truck at full temperature(180*F). Ignition timing was holding at 18-20* throughout full boost range. I just preformed a compression test when I was having a hard time getting the distributor timing set. All cylinder dead even across the whole board(no low cylinder). The injectors were flow tested and cleaned before the last dyno session. I don't know what I am missing. I have new plugs in as well. So I am going to pull plugs and close the gap just a bit, to make sure I am not getting any spark blow out.

If anyone can think of something else to try, let me know and ill check it out.

Thank
 
Ty1642

Ty1642

Member
Re: Setting Timing Issue

Mark@TuckerPerformance said:
Well it looks like the picture did not work.

How do i go about uploading a picture from my computer to the forum post?
Click to expand...

The easiest way to post a photo is to create a photobucket account and save the photo there. You can add the link to the photo here, and it will appear in your post.
 
dgoodhue

dgoodhue

BuSTeD 4.3
Re: Setting Timing Issue

There aren't many thing to fail in a new distributor.

Did the new distributor come with a cap/rotor? If so I would replace the cap/rotor with a brass contact model. If that doesn't work, I would replace the ignition module [My recommendation would be to use an AC Delco ignition module].

Assuming nothing else has changed (or worn/failed) The only other thing I can think of is the truck was tuned with a different base timing and the timing difference was accounted for in the tune.
 
M

Mark@TuckerPerformance

New member
Re: Setting Timing Issue

The new distributor did come with a new cap and rotor. I still have my old cap and rotor that I can actually bolt onto this one. The ignition module is brand new as well in the new distributor.

So my plan as of now is to change cap and rotor. Try it.
Then stay on the dyno for a couple of runs and just change the distributor timing advancing a small amount and retarding a small amount. And see what differences I get. I do have the DataMaster to log knock retard, so if I do have the distributor to far advance, I should be able to let out of it if I get some knock.
And then go from there on what results I get.
 
Couger1968

Couger1968

Dazed and Confused
Re: Setting Timing Issue

I have the same distributor, I didn't know what ignition module it had so I ordered a new gm one. With that one I set my timing 0 but when I checked it at higher rpm and my timing was 4 off from what the computer said I was supposed to be. I can ended up putting my factory module in and it cured it.
 
M

Mark@TuckerPerformance

New member
Re: Setting Timing Issue

dgoodhue said:
The only other thing I can think of is the truck was tuned with a different base timing and the timing difference was accounted for in the tune.
Click to expand...

I just want to thank you very much for the information and advice you have shared with me.
I ended up advancing the distributor 2* on the crank pulley each time(while logging for knock, AFR, Timing, boost, etc) and each pull it got better.

So I believe what you said about the tune being done with a different base timing is the problem I was having.

It is currently making 632peak and hold above 600 all the way to 5200, and just barely drops under 600 by 5500.

Also thank you for the others that posted here trying to help me find/fix my issue.
 
B

Black Ty Afair

New member
Re: Setting Timing Issue

Could you share your final pull, maybe even transposed with the other two, would like to see how the torque behaved.
TIA, Gordy
 
G

Gt_Sgt

self diagnosed INSANE!
Re: Setting Timing Issue

Looks the same as valve float, how many P.S.I. are you at @ 4500? how many lbs are Valve springs? Guessing Only
 
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