serious question about auto to manual conversion

[vabeachsyty]

has anyone actually looked up and cross referenced and seen if, say a nv4500 that goes in a manual chevy 1500 or 2500, has the same bolt pattern as the 700r4 for the transfer case to bolt up? i know theres no one here that is in favor of the manual tranny swap, and ive never seen it done. i tried search and all i got was a bunch of threads that basicly added up to, if you try to switch to a manual you are a moron. but seriously guys, where would i look, mabye advance adapters? i looked around the fullsize and s10 boards but nothing came up really. im wondering if the manual 4x4 s10s and auto 4x4 s10s have identical tranfer cases? what about a 1500, or 2500? anything else that uses a 700r4 that is 4x4? its crossed my mind that it has to be possible, although i was thinking also that the added stress from a manual would give the t-case hell and stretch that chain out. because watching the skyline on www.exvitermini.com, its manual and awd but all the part have been beefed to handle like oh 1500 hp. anyone out there pondering the same thing? if i could pull it off once i get a sy, would you guys have any respect for it or just hate me for it?

 

[Sy769]

Sytys use a 4x4 case.
The output shaft may be different.

It is my opinion that a stock syty motor could shred a many of the manual trans used in 4x4 trucks.

Now if you could mate up a 6 speed that would be fun but I think it would slow the truck down unless you are very fast on the shifts.

 

[Captain Morgan]

im not sure about the T cases myself, however I can tell you that pretty much the only easy/reliable way to converter to a manual will be to use a stock 4/5 speed from a truck such as an S-10 or Fullsize GM.

GM does not use the BW T-56 in ANY 4x4 applications so there isnt any GM parts that are going to be direct bolt on and last time I heard, not even Advanced Adaptors made a T-56 4x4 adaptor plate.

May I ask why you would want a slower truck? Yes, there would be a certian amount of "fun" and it would be a one of a kind truck, however you have to realize the "fun" factor is limited to the design of components involved, namely the engine.

You're not going to have the same high speed tire chirping power shifts like turbo imports or even naturally aspirated american cars. This is mainly due to the fact that the pushrod V6 we use is a low revving motor where the powerband isnt as broad as a turbocharged DSM or Supra for example. Those cars dont drop RPMs as rapidly inbetween shifts like a pushrod motor does and thus keeping the car in the powerband and allowing those fun power shifts.

Most people havent driven a SyTy without the aid of the turbo or at least not on purpose but those who have blown off the turbo to intake hose can probably back me up when I say the truck really doesnt get out of its own way unless that spinny thing is pushin some air. Now considering nobody has ever successfully done it, I can only predict that a SyTy with a manual trans will do about the same thing since you will be in and out of the gas everytime you shift, you will drop out of the powerband and the truck is just not going to haul ass like the great truck gods intended it to do.

Now I cant tell you not to look into it further or to even not do it, but your not the first person to want to do it, hell, even i thought about it at one time, but what it basically boils down to is that you will be spending A LOT of time and money and will most likely not enjoy the end result. Hopefully thats some food for thought, either way, good luck.

 

[Sy769]

Ya have to admit Morgan that we'd all want to drive it though.

 

[InvisiBill]

What Morgan said.

It's not just a case of "Auto > Manual, so you're dumb!" and that's all there is to it. Like he said, the engine, turbo, and tranny are all matched pretty well. With a manual, you'll most likely shift slower. I'm not saying you can't shift, just that our trannies are pretty good as far as autos go. And with shifting, you'll be on and off the gas all the time, so the turbo will be spinning down. A blowoff valve would help some of that, but it simpy can't spin if there's no exhaust gas pushing it. I think most turbo cars would be better with a good automatic...

Not sure if it helps any, but there was/is a relatively rare option for a 5-speed on the 4.3L S-10. I don't know if it's RWD only, or if you could get it with 4x4 also. That may be a point to start from...

 

[vabeachsyty]

i have a 94 4.3 5spd. 2wd. really hard to find. the manual trans would have to be out of a 4x4 and would have to use a case design the same as a 700r4 where the t-case bolts up. im going to look into what patters gm used on the back of their 4x4 manual transmissions and see if any match up. the trans would be out of a truck and the shifts would be slow, truck shift patters suck compared to cars. my s10, the space between 1st and 2nd feels like a good foot, compared to a few inches in a slomaro. i guess it could be fixed with a short throw shifter, if any are made for the manuals in trucks. ill try and research more and get back if i find any new info. thanks guys and im totally understanding what your saying about the motor falling off the powerband. i can see that because all the jap motors are sohc or dohc and those motors have less valvetrain parts and can rev to the moon. anyways, thanks for the input if i find anyting ill post.

 

[myclone]

When I built my last "road race" s10 I looked into using the stock s truck 5 spd rather than the world class T5. I found one at a bone yard and once it was installed the throws between gears seemed like a mile long. I hated it plus IMO it was almost impossible to power shift as fast as the T5. I yanked the truck 5spd out and put the T5 back in.

As all of you know a T5 wont work for us for a few reasons. First off is a T5 would last .00001 second into a AWD clutch dump and second is the tail housing is not configured to match any xfer case bolt pattern. On the other hand the s truck 5 spd is HUGE compared to the T5 and may actually live slightly longer but it will be a dissapointment IMO to drive because of the mile long shift throws.

I dont have a money tree but if I did I can promise you I would have had a T56 cut up and machined to fit the xfer case by now just for the hell of it. Cool project to try IMO but WAY out of my price range.

 

[dgoodhue]

I am a big standard fan, but I would never do one in my sy. Its just too much work. Their are way to make boost at the line (2 step rpm limiter) and between shifts. t5 aren't going to cut it and I think even t56 may need to be beefied up to handle a syty motor escepcailly modified. Plus the associated cost of custom adapters, driveshaft/propshaft is going to add up quick. You going to spend a lot of money for a novelty. I usually don't like auto's, but syty are actually realtively fun to drive.

 

[vabeachsyty]

any one looked into the nv4500? its a 4x4 trans used in newer chevys and dodges, and although i have not found someone that has said the 4l60/700r4 and the nv4500 are a bolt in swap, i think it would be possible. the nv4500 is rated for big numbers, they use it behing big blocks too. im going to do more looking tonight. and yes the tranny in my truck is near impossible to shift good, 1st is near the dash and 2nd is on the seat :x plus that tranny doesnt like abuse. anyone else know about he nv4500? its alot shorter than the 4l60 i believe. i have to go to class, ill keep looking later tonight.

 

[rockvillespeed]

i'd love to see it happen - if things were all in proper harmony.
i have a t56 in my 2wd v8 s10 - it's way sweet, in every way.

first, to answer some ?'s, and maybe start others, there was 5 speed 4wd 4.3 s10's.
there are several reasons why that trans, or one from a fullsize, makes a shitty hi-perf trans, and one is the above long throw.
to some degree, a hurst shifter will help that.
real reason it's poor is the ultra short first gear ratio, meaning a huge jump to 2nd, and tthe relatively short fifth gear (i believe it's .83, off the top o my head).
this means even more cruise rpm then we have now.

sticks can and do work great with turbos - especially the dinky oem units most guys still have in their trucks.
sure, boost falls off with throttle drop - but any good stick pilot will tell you that's easy to work around!
under "battle" conditions, powershifts are in order anyway - no more boost drop then with an automatic.
stick will make the truck "feel" faster - we all know they pull harder on the clutch then witht he converter unlocked, not to mention a huge gain in parasitic hp suckage off the auto - far less efficient then a manual.

part throttle performance, imo, the edge would go to the auto - nice 1/2 throttle constant pull, no drama, is nice, vs. the surging, changes in g force, blowoff noise, etc that goes with traffic driving a turbo stick.

last big thing is engine combo - our shit's a tractor motor in stockish form - no top end power at all, tho it's not designed to.
guys with heads, cams, etc that routinely go to 5500rpm or more could really benefit.

that all said, its still and always will be a bitch to stage and launch a stick turbo, so it all depends on what you're gonna do witht eh car.

a bolt in setup from oem just isnt smart in most cases, and as above, i dont see a cake way to make the t56 work - but, it could be done by someone determined, i think.

 

[THEMADTYPH00N]

Even with a 5 grand clutch dump I still can't see a manual Sy/Ty ever lauching as hard as an automatic. Most of our advantage comes from our lauches taking that away just seem to be going backwards. But I must admit the idea sounds fun. If you goal was not to go fast and just to have fun I say go for it.

 

[protosy]

i am jumping in here on this because it is something i am seriously contemplating for the sy chassis/s10 body that is sitting in my driveway.

my plan is/would be to build up a bowtie motor that i could spin to say 6500 or so, use light pistons/rods, knife edge the crank, use a light flywheel, etc. get the rotating assembly down in weight, the right heads and cam to help the motor to spin up quick (relatively so anyways).

i would then use a t56 modified to take the new style tcase that uses clutches/stepper motor that is found in a escalade. i have actually been working on the tailshaft and adapter design for a while now. i have both the case and the t56 sitting on my garage floor at the moment. hopefully i can get it made up for <1k, but we will see when its said and done.

driveshafts can easily be made/found to work for this combo. pedals sets, mc, etc are easy to come by (actually have all of that already as well).

personally, i think it would be fun to have a full coil over suspension, super low weight, 600+hp, awd, 6spd, truck.

chad

 

[rockvillespeed]

chad, i'll yank my t56 and pedal assembly yesterday if u build that adapter..!.

 

[vabeachsyty]

ive been trying to apply my 4x4 and fullsize truck knowledge here. i know theres guys out there with newer chevy/gmc 1500 4x4 trucks that are swapping out the 700r4 for a nv4500. its for the most part a bolt up. this tranny with a short throw( which short throw is still long) seems like a much eaiser swap then a t56. the t56 is a 2wd tranny correct? theres far too much work involved to get the transfer case to bolt up to the t56 unless you go to a divorced transfer case setup. even then you would have to fabricate a bunch of parts. thats why im trying to find a good cross reference as to what the fullsize 4x4 guys are putting in place of their 700r4. seems to me like a much more cost effective way to try it out and see how you like it. if you do end up liking it and others do as well, then i can see the expensive adapters and parts being made to get the t56 in there as it has many advantages over a truck manual tranny, but if it ends up being a total waste and the truck owner doesnt like it, then all the money spent trying to get a 2wd manual in there is wasted. if anyone knows newer gm trannys or 4x4s feel free to chime in. my main reason i would see doing this swap is to get away from all of the headaches caused by failed auto trannys, failed convertors, etc. it seems the tranny is the weak link in the syty's so why not either go the ultra beef 4l80e or a manual( i know you can go th350 or th400 but ive read they arent ideal for a daily driver or weekend cruise type truck, more race oriented). plus imo a manual is 500 times eaiser to fix when they break. i do agree that the motor and such would not be ideal for a manual, and autos have a distinct advantage in this type of setup, but im really suprised that no one has done a manual swap yet. im still searching boards and trying to find some input from around the net. ill post if i find anything helpful.