PEP front coil over kit - frame bracing necessary?

[HighPerformanceTrucks]

I've been giving some serious thought about replacing the factory shock towers with custom chrome moly shock towers that has a "strut tower" type of brace that connects the two shock towers with a removable crosspiece inside the engine compartment.

I'm thinking the frame might want to flex inward when the front suspension gets loaded heavily.

The PEP setup distributes the load on the frame differently than the factory torsion bar does so I'm hoping the cross brace will eliminate any potential frame flex.

Anyone experience any problems with the front coil over kits yet?

 

[the Sandman]

Re: PEP front coil over kit - frame bracing necessary?

I've been giving some serious thought about replacing the factory shock towers with custom chrome moly shock towers that has a "strut tower" type of brace that connects the two shock towers with a removable crosspiece inside the engine compartment.

I'm thinking the frame might want to flex inward when the front suspension gets loaded heavily.

The PEP setup distributes the load on the frame differently than the factory torsion bar does so I'm hoping the cross brace will eliminate any potential frame flex.

Anyone experience any problems with the front coil over kits yet?

OK, ATD:

-The stock shock towers are well designed and solidly built. They are much stronger than they look.

-These trucks were designed as 4X4's for offroad use and the frame is built strong to handle torsional stress - it's fully boxed from the firewall forward (maybe back from there a ways, too). Plus, the powertrain components bolt in solidly right between the shock mounts. And there is a beefy crossmember just ahead of the shock mounts which drops down several inches, giving great resistance to flexing.

-If you did put a crossbrace between the shock towers it would have to bend considerably around the engine/accessories making it pretty ineffective at preventing flex.

-So, anyone experience any problems with the front coil over kits yet?

 

[HighPerformanceTrucks]

Re: PEP front coil over kit - frame bracing necessary?

I've been giving some serious thought about replacing the factory shock towers with custom chrome moly shock towers that has a "strut tower" type of brace that connects the two shock towers with a removable crosspiece inside the engine compartment.

I'm thinking the frame might want to flex inward when the front suspension gets loaded heavily.

The PEP setup distributes the load on the frame differently than the factory torsion bar does so I'm hoping the cross brace will eliminate any potential frame flex.

Anyone experience any problems with the front coil over kits yet?

OK, ATD:

-The stock shock towers are well designed and solidly built. They are much stronger than they look.

-These trucks were designed as 4X4's for offroad use and the frame is built strong to handle torsional stress - it's fully boxed from the firewall forward (maybe back from there too). Plus, the powertrain components bolt in solidly right between the shock mounts. And there is a beefy crossmember just ahead of the shock mounts which drops down several inches, giving great resistance to flexing.

-If you did put a crossbrace between the shock towers it would have to bend considerably around the engine/accessories making it pretty ineffective at preventing flex.

-So, anyone experience any problems with the front coil over kits yet?

That sounds about the same info Dennis at PEP mentioned, but wasn't 100% convinced. I'll give it a try at first and if I notice anything moving around like it shouldn't, I let you know.

I will definitely add some welds to the shock tower though.

Thanks

Adam

 

[rockvillespeed]

you're giving way too much credit to gm on it's design.
adam, i would def look into some bracing.
the oem shock towers are not designed to handle a spring load as well.
i have no idea actually how strong they are, nor am i busting on anyones suspension setup - just stating fact.
bracees never hurt.
if/when i go with jeff scott's now stuff, i will be bracing.

 

[the Sandman]

you're giving way too much credit to gm on it's design.
adam, i would def look into some bracing.
the oem shock towers are not designed to handle a spring load as well.
i have no idea actually how strong they are, nor am i busting on anyones suspension setup - just stating fact.
bracees never hurt.
if/when i go with jeff scott's now stuff, i will be bracing.

Your response is one big contradiction. You say you "have no idea actually how strong they are", then you go on to make statements about their load handling capacity and the need for bracing. What "fact" are you stating? What training or experience are you basing your opinions on.

Dennis could easily make up a chromemoly brace and charge for it. He will not because it would not be effective due to the bends it would have, and because it is not necessary.

If you wish to use such a brace in your truck, have at it. But don't confuse fact with opinion. I also wouldn't be so qucik to dismiss Dennis' analysis of the stock setup - it's his business to know these things and he's pretty good at it.

 

[rockvillespeed]

well, here's a fact, defensive boy.
the shock absorber structure is and wasnt meant to handle spring loads.
fact.
fact - gm is not exactly concerned about handling prowess in it's late 70's design of the s/t truck.
training/experience? - i'd be a lot more then you.
trained road racer, own a speedshop, fabricate race cars on a regular basis.
how's that?
again, if you;'d actually read instead of flying off the handle, i am not flaming anyone - dennis, jeff , etc.
as i also said, i would like to install jeff's stuff and intend to after i finish about a thousand other things.
who's butt are u up anyway?

 

[rockvillespeed]

laslt, go find ANY oem based car seriously roadraced that doesnt have bracing of some sort.
rollcages arent just for safety in an accident - amazingly, all that "bracing" adds staggering frame rigidity, too!
no suspension, no matter how well designed/executed/constructed can possibly do what it is intended to if the frame it attaches to is flexing.
since i know adam is a racer, i was bottom line suggesting he brace his vehicle up - find me one person with a clue who'd say thats a bad idea.
i don't wanna flame you either - but think and read carefully before responding to posts.

 

[the Sandman]

rockvillespeed - please try to maintain your composure. I didn't take your post as a flame, and neiither was mine meant to be one. I'm trying to point out that your opinion on this matter seems more based on speculation than a true engineering analysis. You said "i have no idea actually how strong they are, nor am i busting on anyones suspension setup - just stating fact". I'm saying, based on your own words, that the only fact you've stated is that you have no idea actually how strong they are. Dennis, an engineer who fabricates and modifies vehicles, has done 2 dozen V8 S10 swaps, and has designed, built, and installed the front end kits on these vehicles, has examined the stock setup extensively. I can only give you his evaluation and leave you to use the information as you see fit.

Peace!

 

[rockvillespeed]

i am generally composureless anyway!
once more - pls read a bit more thoroughly - a major fact is the upper shock mount was never intended to absorb spring load.
this is irrefutable.
when folks go offroad racing, as u mentioned earlier, they run fabbed shock mounts (regarding coilovers).
i am not disregarding the analysis dennis did - i think his stuff is quite lovely and well done, and i am impressed with it and wouldnt hesitate to use it on my own stuff.
what i am discussing is real world issues - first, adam races his truck. see my posts above regarding frame strength.
the huge majority of folks will never ever see a road race track - or even a weekend autocross.
throwing yer truck into a corner on teh street, on street tires, is not the same as racing it.
second is metal fatigue.
metal does fatigue - all metal does.
our shit is already at youngest 11 years old.
most of our trucks have led a fairly hard life - i know mine has.
we all know about the front end issues of gm's design when lowered/etc as most syty guys do.
anyway, again, when i install mine from whover it comes from, when i get there, i will be at minimum adding weld/gussets to teh area in question - if a crossbrace can be done practically - i would do that without hesitation.
again, you won't find a real setup wiothout one - there is a staggering amount of load input there.
i guess i should state as a disclaimer that there's no warranty implied or expressed here! - ie, i am wishing to ruffle feathers here.
i'll call up something from the past as sort of an analogy - everyone loved al dustan's shit before all went wrong - then, as i first posted way way back when, folks began to question teh heim joints' suitability as general street use pivots - which imo they are absolutely not.
this is a rough one at best - but, in line.
nothing can ever be too strong.
btw - v8 s10 6 speed in my garage - no bearing at all on syty front end.
and building one is child's play.

 

[the Sandman]

laslt, go find ANY oem based car seriously roadraced that doesnt have bracing of some sort.
rollcages arent just for safety in an accident - amazingly, all that "bracing" adds staggering frame rigidity, too!
no suspension, no matter how well designed/executed/constructed can possibly do what it is intended to if the frame it attaches to is flexing.
since i know adam is a racer, i was bottom line suggesting he brace his vehicle up - find me one person with a clue who'd say thats a bad idea.
i don't wanna flame you either - but think and read carefully before responding to posts.

Rollcages - now we're talking about a different kettle of fish. Yes, a *proper* rollcage, which on a Syclone would need to go down to the frame, both through the floorboards *and* through the rear of the cab, would stiffen the frame, mostly in the center and rear of the truck. Above, we were discussing shock tower bracing to stiffen the front section of the frame. Dennis' opinion is that the front section of the frame is the strongest part since it's fully boxed, well braced by factory crossmembers, and has solid powertrain components bolted up between the shock mounts. ATD FWIW.

 

[rockvillespeed]

i don't see where rubber mounted powertrain components are gonna do squat for compression stiffness - or anything else.
otherwise, i agree with dennis - likely strongest part of the truck.
does that make it strong enuf to absorb repeated bottoming out loads, for example, in street use?
i'd not especially wanna be the one who finds the failure point.
again, not at all condeming the design of dennis/jeff/al - it can't get any better, imo - where r u gonna put the shock otherwise?
but, if it was mine, i'd add metal. much as possible, wherever possible.
spread the load.

 

[HighPerformanceTrucks]

I found a truck at recent pre Hot August Nights gathering that had a tube built shock tower with a removable crossover piece w/ urethane bushings. The truck is a full size 4x4. It's designed in such a way that the towers are protruding high enough into the fenderwell to eliminate excessive bends in the cross piece and any flex associated with the cross bracing.

For piece of mind, I'm going to serious consider doing a custom spring/shock perch. Since it will already be in place, I'll install the crossbrace. It looks like the crossbrace may fit better behind the intake than in front of it.

Adam

 

[blackbeast1]

btw - v8 s10 6 speed in my garage - no bearing at all on syty front end.
and building one is child's play.

i couldn't help but take offense to this, sorry

"building one" or throwing one together may be childs play, it's seems every redneck bubba's cousin has built 3 dozen, but completely rebuilding one (mine's nearly 20 years old) and building a V8 6-speed truck the right way is certainly not childs play, even though i am only 20. Sure, a few corners have been cut where it was warranted because of budget constraints, but everybody experiences that. I would say building a truck that is capable of outhandling and plain outperforming any fox-body stang or other daily driven (non-racecar) in town in quit an accomplishment.

/rant, continue with your conversation

 

[the Sandman]

I found a truck at recent pre Hot August Nights gathering that had a tube built shock tower with a removable crossover piece w/ urethane bushings. The truck is a full size 4x4. It's designed in such a way that the towers are protruding high enough into the fenderwell to eliminate excessive bends in the cross piece and any flex associated with the cross bracing.

For piece of mind, I'm going to serious consider doing a custom spring/shock perch. Since it will already be in place, I'll install the crossbrace. It looks like the crossbrace may fit better behind the intake than in front of it.

Hey Adam - I encourage you to try the recommended setup first, to evaluate the difference going from stock to PEP components *and* as a baseline to compare the "normal" PEP install to the configuration you're talking about. Let us know what you think. BTW, Dennis would be happy to do a complete chromoly frame and roll cage for you if you want the most weight reduction and stiffest, strongest frame possible. He's even considered doing custom modified McPherson strut front suspensions. And the rear coilovers of course. It's only a question of time and money...

If you're interested, I can find out from Dennis how to get you in touch with Jimmy Alvis, the professional racecar driver who did some hard testing on my Typhoon. He can give you some really good feedback on how the truck felt with the front and rear PEP kits installed. You would not believe the things he did with that truck...at least I can't.

 

[rockvillespeed]

sorry if u r offended, but i stand by what i said.
building something with off shelf parts readily available from a variety of companies isnt even in the same league as design/fabrication.
my first was an 82, my current an 86 - and both were raging pieces of shit, understated, to say teh least, when i started.
restoration of an old beater has nothing to do with the v8 swap.
far as outhandling any fox stang, come back to earth.
weight distribution alone dictates that'll never happen.
i have a road race 93 fox; my v8 truck is also well set up to handle with teh usual stuff, and believe me - there's no comparison.
even on street tires and with the double adj konis fulll soft on both sides, the stang will dance circles round teh truck.
far as outperforming - assuming u mean acceleration -- i dunno what town u live in, but not here, amigo.
my fox has roughly 600 rear wheel hp, and it'll sure as hell munch happily on my s10....
don't misunderstand me - i am not denigrating your hopefully good work and accomplishments - but the world is a big big place, and someone's ALWAYS faster - no matter who/where u are.
far as the child's play comment - go get and read mike knell's book on v8 s10's - it's an instruction manual on how to. (jagsthatrun.com is one source)
hence - instructions, and shelf parts -sounds pretty low on teh aggravation factor scale to me.

 

[ParTyBoy]

 

[blackbeast1]

i dont' understand how building a truck from scratch and turning it into something very different from what is once was cannot be considered design and fabrication. True, it may not be a tube-frame race truck, but if i had the money/time/skill it would be. Anybody can buy a bunch of off the shelf parts, but it is the combination of those parts that really matters, and will ultimately dictate the end result.

i didnt' mean for me to come off saying my truck will outhandle any fox stang. I just simply meant, it will outhandle any fox stang that i have driven, i certainly realize there will always be someone faster/better.

and as far as the jags that run book, yes i have it because i'd heard it was god when it comes to v8 s-trucks, while i certainly think it has some good information i think there are much better ways to do things than that book reccommends, but it does give you something to think about.

and i'm sure you can aggre, just because you have off the shelf parts, and instructions does not mean you have an easy project, we are afterall talking about modifying vehicles, and somehow there's always problems which must be addressed.

continue on
:drinking:

sorry if u r offended, but i stand by what i said.
building something with off shelf parts readily available from a variety of companies isnt even in the same league as design/fabrication.
my first was an 82, my current an 86 - and both were raging pieces of shit, understated, to say teh least, when i started.
restoration of an old beater has nothing to do with the v8 swap.
far as outhandling any fox stang, come back to earth.
weight distribution alone dictates that'll never happen.
i have a road race 93 fox; my v8 truck is also well set up to handle with teh usual stuff, and believe me - there's no comparison.
even on street tires and with the double adj konis fulll soft on both sides, the stang will dance circles round teh truck.
far as outperforming - assuming u mean acceleration -- i dunno what town u live in, but not here, amigo.
my fox has roughly 600 rear wheel hp, and it'll sure as hell munch happily on my s10....
don't misunderstand me - i am not denigrating your hopefully good work and accomplishments - but the world is a big big place, and someone's ALWAYS faster - no matter who/where u are.
far as the child's play comment - go get and read mike knell's book on v8 s10's - it's an instruction manual on how to. (jagsthatrun.com is one source)
hence - instructions, and shelf parts -sounds pretty low on teh aggravation factor scale to me.