Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

[dgoodhue]

Re: Performance Predictions!

Re: Performance Predictions!

Here's my predictions:

Worst case scenario (assuming the bottom end doesn't let loose which is the ultimate worst case scenario :lol: )
11.40 - 11.50 @ 115-116 MPH. I could see this happening if the unported vortecs are severely overhyped and/or my PT51 turbo is already closer to it's limit than I thought.

What I realistically expect once tuned well at high boost with alcohol
10.95-11.30 @ 117-124 MPH. I'll still be somewhat "surprised" if it really works out this well!

Best case scenario (if it works beyond my expectations)
10.65-10.90 @ 125-127 MPH. I doubt this would happen but I've had a few mods on my truck work out better than I expected in the past..

Phil Long set the bar pretty high with his stock long block (heads/cam/weak internals) with his mods being basically PTE 52, Air to Air IC, ATR headers, 50#, good race gas, high stall converter & traction. For those who don't remember he ran 11.1@118mph & 10.9 @ 121 mph with 35 shot N2O. Phil obviously spent a lot of time working on traction and tuning this combo. I think he ran 25-26 of boost. His combo has alway intrigued me.

At first glance, it seems like it would be pretty easy to improve his time if one was to run better heads and cam. Stock unported Vortec flow 40% more air out of the box and easily take 5-6 degree more timing than stock heads. The typically aftermarket cam cam have 30-40% more lift than the stock cam, duration number increases are relatively large as well. It really isn't that easy, many modified motors running bigger turbo's in what most what call good tunes don't run much faster than him.

Traction, was running low 1.5's, high 1.4's this obviously helped quite a bit and lot of attention detail was done. The faster you go that harder it will be to get your Sy to hook up. However, it wasn't all done with traction, if was that easy we would see a lot more Sy's running mid 11's with 118mph trap speeds.

Mods and tuning. 118 mph out of PTE52 is pretty amazing, this goes to show everyone how much can be done with tuning. One thing I alway wonder is what would happened if he used stock exhaust manifolds or used a stock upper IC, how much did either one those mods help him improve? (I am personally more interest in the headers as I have ), Tooky will be using stock IC and manifolds. In someways the stock pieces don't seem to be slow down Jeremy Duncan that much with his stock turbo (another highly tuned Sy) I also wonder what would happen with better heads and/or cam, was his PTE 52 maxed out? Maybe a small gain? Ed Hess ran a 10.6 or so on PTE60 Air to Air, headers, with a custom cam & vortecs (He gain a few .1's from upgrading the cam from a 412) Ed also spent a bunch of time with traction and had a relatively heavy Sy. I think a PTE60 is a little bigger than a PTE52, but this off the top of my head.

Lots of questions, probably won't find out until someone else pushes the tuning envelope again.

 

[JSM]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Look at it this way.

I will use Jeremy's truck for example first since I know the most about it.

From the timeslip page, his best et's are

60ft 1.653
1/8mile 7.545
1/4 11.943

The first 60ft is 14% of the race
The first half of the track is 63%
The 2nd half of the race is 4.4 seconds

General rule of thumb is .1 second gain in 60ft is .2seconds in ET.

If you watch the cars running high MPH but low et's, the 60ft is generally crap.

 

[Tooky]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

there is no need to cut the heads for larger springs. I personally use a comp spring and have never cut a spring seat. it's a waste of time and money.

Are you talking about the Comp 915, 918s? http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/vortec_valve_spring_upgrade/

But perhaps the best news of all is that these springs will bolt right onto a stock Vortec head with no machining required.

I thought about those, but at $160 (Summit) it's actually the comp spring that's a waste of money, compared to what I paid for the springs I'm running and the cost to cut the spring seat (next to nothing, even at my machine shop which seems to price on the higher end).

Not to mention I have some LS1 beehive valve springs and they most certainly did not fit on my vortecs. Maybe it varies?

Regardless, the stock vortec casting has a ridiculous spring seat with tons of casting flash, and I wanted the ability to use more than just one or two springs in the future.

 

[Tooky]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

"O' Ye of little faith!!" :lol: Just kidding, I appreciate everyone's comments, skeptical or not. It just gives me more encouragement to get all the little things correct to make my chances of success as good as possible!

I also picked up the Harbor Freight grinder and speed control. Thanks for the pointer!

On the Vortecs, my only real 1st hand experience with them was tuning a local Vortec/412 truck and strangely enough, they didn't seem to give him much performance gain over his old setup, not only that, but they absolutely would not allow any more timing than stock LB4 heads. The truck has the same SMC dual nozzle alcohol setup as mine, and I did the tunes on both, and this truck runs well as long as the timing stays below 19* (this is with heavy use of alcohol and correct AFR). I'd love to see some datamaster files of trucks with vortecs running 93 octane fuel, no alcohol, and showing over 20* timing and flat 0 knock.... I'm not convinced the vortec "efficient combustion chamber" isn't just a myth. After all Denny Raab went 10.2 @ 130 with L35s and a PT63 turbo with the stock intercooler. I guess I'll get more data when I finish mine. Speaking of...

Getting closer! And I'm running out of room in the garage to place all the parts that've come off. I'm up to #42 on my parts-removal tagging.

 

[bezerk]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

make sure you use plenty of rtv on the lower intake when you install it..
don't ask why...you funny ****er

 

[Loeryder]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

It doesn't look like much has to come off to swap the heads until it is strewn all over the garage.

I didn't tag any of the bolts and we spent more time figuring out which stud went where vs bolt than anything.
First time I did a tranny swap I took a box top and poked holes in it and labeled every bolt.
now I know them by heart.

I would recommend to anyone doing a head swap make yourself a bolt box and mark everything.

Glad to see you making progress Josh.
seems you spend more time tuning and racing than cleaning under the hood.
Now you have plenty of room to work in there and get some of that grime disposed of.

 

[Tooky]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Awww.. come on, it's not that bad, is it?? Yeah thats part of the reason I take so long (besides being a procrastinator), I try to clean every dirty bolt and chase the threads of anything gunked up, etc. I just got the water pump and A/C bracket back from the parts washer, boy did they need it!! Any suggestions on what I can paint the water pump with? Just some black engine enamel? I want to powdercoat the aluminum brackets but not sure I'll have time, maybe I'll hit them with gray enamel.

 

[turbodig]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Awww.. come on, it's not that bad, is it?? Yeah thats part of the reason I take so long (besides being a procrastinator), I try to clean every dirty bolt and chase the threads of anything gunked up, etc.

That's why my Sy has taken dang near 4 years.

I just got the water pump and A/C bracket back from the parts washer, boy did they need it!! Any suggestions on what I can paint the water pump with? Just some black engine enamel? I want to powdercoat the aluminum brackets but not sure I'll have time, maybe I'll hit them with gray enamel.

I've got some POR manifold-gray stuff... makes it look like cast again.
Eastwood makes some similar stuff.

Eastwood also makes some real-looking aluminum paint, that's good for the brackets.

 

[10secTy]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

My wifes Typhoon had a similar setup to this.
Stock long block
Stock vortecs with stock springs, rockers, push rods etc
ATR cam (had it laying around)
Bolt on 60-1 with ptrim wheel and stock downpipe
Full weight 4200lbs with me in it at 20psi ran 11.82's @113mph.

More in it but it was her daliy driver and I did not feel like working on it.

Nolan

 

[Tooky]

Update

Update

Official metal song for tonight was "Dope - No Way Out". I just saw these guys live a week and a half ago for the first time and I dig their music and their frontman.

Back to the truck, I put a few more hours in tonight. Got the "Advance Auto rent a tool Power Steering pump Puller" kit for $45 deposit. Worked like a champ!! I had to chase/tap the threads inside the pump shaft since they were a little rusty and I wanted to make sure to seat this thing all the way to reduce the changes of it stripping. Boy did that take a lot of force to pull!! Here's my 2 breaker bars:

Here's what I call the "bitch bracket".. Needless to say, that thing won't be getting reinstalled!! What is the purpose of that stupid thing? There's already 2 big bolts holding the alt in place. I could tell from the rusty dents on my PS reservior that the previous owner (probably GM when they did the warranty swap) also struggled with The Bitch Bolt! :lol:

In the above photo, you can see my P/S pump puller tool is jammed in the P/S pump shaft, but now that the pulley is off, any ideas on how to remove it? Obviously the shaft just spins when I try to back it out. I'd grab the shaft with a pliers to hold it but I dont want to marr the shiny surface the pulley seats on.

After getting that P/S bracket off, I feel like a real SyTy'er.... :rotf: Looks like a fine time to install my Steering Shaft Upgrade too! I got one of those black painted Jeep collapsible ones everyone's selling around here. Does the silver heat shield come off permanently?

Also PB Blasted & loosened some exhaust manifold and turbo bolts/studs. Turbo, downpipe, exh. crossover, manifolds, and harmonic balancer removal are next.

 

[Tooky]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Thursday night I got the turbo and passenger side exhaust manifold out. The 4 turbo nuts were froze even though I used good antisieze when I did the PT51 upgrade in 2003. All it took was 15-20 seconds of an easy propane torch to each nut and I was able to get them with a 14mm open-ended stubby on the nut and a pipe on the stubby, and strike it with a mallet.

The crossover is real easy to get out when you have this much stuff removed:

When I pulled the exhaust manifolds, each side had 1 or 2 bolts/studs that were really tough to turn (due to manifold "stretch"), and it rounded the threads and made them all shiny.. Is there any way to prevent this? Where can I get new bolts/studs?

Here's about half of the parts that came out so far.

Saturday (yesterday) I got the stock steering shaft out (upgrading to MYyellowTY's Jeep/u-joint shaft) and then removed the driver's exhaust manifold. Now it's down to just the heads!! Things are looking up now, like I might still get this done in time for Nationals 2007.

Here's a good look at the stock heat shield on the driver's motor mount:

The bottom of the driver's exhaust manifold literally rests upon the heat shield, it's no wonder why nearly every time I see a truck with the red polyurethane motor mounts, they are dripping like melted candle wax!! I will NEVER put those polyurethane mounts in my truck, that's for sure!!

 

[turbodig]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

The bottom of the driver's exhaust manifold literally rests upon the heat shield, it's no wonder why nearly every time I see a truck with the red polyurethane motor mounts, they are dripping like melted candle wax!! I will NEVER put those polyurethane mounts in my truck, that's for sure!!

I've had 3 of 'em here with poly mounts, and no problems so far. Some with many, many miles on them.

You hit on the problem, though, some try to use the heat shields as-is, which ain't gonna cut it. The successful ones all have additional heat-shield (blanket) material in that area to avoid the problem.

 

[Tooky]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Mark Larson strongly advised me to stay away from the poly mounts and his advice was to use nothing but stock GM mounts. I know you're local to him - do you know why he might have felt that way? I haven't talked to him in a while.

 

[nallj92]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

ill stick to my stock rubber mounts and my engine tiedown

tooky- awesome research / writeup as always

 

[Tooky]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Is anyone else besides me and Dig reading this stuff?? I posted a few questions (the stuck PS puller tool, the rounded exhaust manifold bolt threads) and no responses, I hate to waste the time documenting this if nobody needs it.

Here's the latest update anyways. Spent 6 more hours last night and got the passenger's head off. I noticed something strange. After taking the valve cover off, none of the rockers seem like they are being "lifted"? I could also grab all 6 rockers and wiggle them slightly with little effort. The pushrods also seemed relatively easy to spin. I don't have any method to crank the motor or I would have turned it over. The driver's bank had a few that were lifted.

Here's a tip to anyone else who does this in the future. Drain your block before you pull the head bolts! Hell, drain it as soon as you can in the job. Even with the exhaust manifolds removed I couldn't get to the driver's side 14mm drain plug due to the brake lines and oil filter lines, so I did the passenger side near the starter. Hopefully new head gaskets will also solve an occasional "murky coolant" problem I've had for the past 3 years or so (it seems to come and go).

The reason you want to drain the block first is because when you open the head bolts, coolant will pump out!

Here's my passenger side cylinder head:

Here's my #2, #4, & #6 bores. Comments?? The gray speckled spots on #2 and #6 have me concerned. Am I correct in assuming that is damage suffered from detonation?

Here's a closeup of that #6 which appeared to be the worst. The garbage at the bottom is thread sealer and crap that fell in when I lifted the head and then tried to wipe it up with a rag which seemed to jam it further into the gap. (I'll try vacuuming it out tonight.)

The driver's head will come off soon. It sure is a pain removing the rockers and head bolts with hand tools!!

 

[Tooky]

Other Questions

Other Questions

Anyone have any suggestions for other things I should do while I have it this far apart? I thought of replacing the motor mounts with fresh GM ones just for the hell of it, but it will be a challenge to find someone who can borrow me a cherry picker, and I've never pulled a motor before either so I'm sure that'll add an extra 12 hours. :lol:

Someone suggested replacing the rod bolts since I plan on spinning the motor higher than stock, can you even do that while the motor is installed? The rod bolts I've looked at always seemed like they were press-fit into the rod.

 

[James Thomas]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Tooky, replacing rod bolts requires removal of the rods, if you go with good bolts (ARP) then they should be re-sized and I won't put a set in any other way no matter what any one else says (just my anal opinion) due to several failures I have seen. I would check the balance also because I ahve seen a difference there also. If it were a bone stock family crusier that would never see 4000 rpm, then no biggie.

 

[V]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

When I pulled the exhaust manifolds, each side had 1 or 2 bolts/studs that were really tough to turn (due to manifold "stretch"), and it rounded the threads and made them all shiny.. Is there any way to prevent this? Where can I get new bolts/studs?

Doesn't look too bad in the pic. A die should clean up the bolts/studs. Manifold spreader would've made removal easier. You'll probably need a spreader...or heat...to put the manifolds back on.

Prevention? Just need more experience wrenching to know when you're about to FUBAR something. You can learn to "feel" when you're about to snap a stud, round a nut or strip threads.

Things are looking up now, like I might still get this done in time for Nationals 2007. ?

I hope so, but don't count your chickens....putting it back together is always the hardest the first time around. Good luck!

 

[Tooky]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Doesn't look too bad in the pic. A die should clean up the bolts/studs. Manifold spreader would've made removal easier. You'll probably need a spreader...or heat...to put the manifolds back on.

Good call, V. I used a spreader once in the past when I had to install exhaust manifold gaskets on the passenger side.

I hope so, but don't count your chickens....putting it back together is always the hardest the first time around. Good luck!

I thought taking it apart would be harder because I don't really know what I'm doing and everything is so filthy and gunked together. Any other things I should look out for when I start reassembling with the new heads? Thanks for your time.

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

I have never had a problem with two set of manifold I have pulled off. I am very aware of manifold shrinkage, so I always bolt my set of manifolds to a set of heads. I supose your manifold could have shrank in the past though.