Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

[PPI Typhoon]

Re: Finally have a mold for making plastic cladding

Re: Finally have a mold for making plastic cladding

Correct me If I'm wrong here but, isn't that a simple poured latex/silicone flexible female mold pictured there ?
An infusable mold requires a considerable outside flange and that one has none to speak of. Not to mention that to make a good ,well held shaped part in composites requires ZERO flexing during dry layups, prior to prevac and infusion ,particularly with some of our more complex cladding pieces.
Even if you were to go another step and make a solid Master and lay-up for a Male mold you'd be going the wrong direction.
I don't want to come across condecending here, Its just that I do alot of CF VIP or Infusion and the processes are indeed much more complex than I see in your effort there.
The biggest concern once proper molds are made too is the final close tolerence body fitment. These parts can only fit as good as the parts they are pulled from. Warpage is almost a certainty when a loose part is not mounted or jigged to a parent surface to remain tight. Blah , blah, blah .....I realize how this comes across. I just didn't want anyones hopes disoriented, perhaps even your own ?
Now if your going for a sprayed Eurothane/ Carbon plastic and can control the build thickness with some nice expensive two-part equipment.......then your mold may work .
Best of luck ! :tup:
.............V'

Yes I will take the opportunity to correct you, thanks.

When ever did I say this mold was for vacuum infusion??

The project originally was to make fiberglass cladding, but I have moved to a reaction injection molding setup. So I'm not "disorienting" anyone's hopes. You're right, it does come across as almost confrontational. Even in the post I have that it's a mold for plastic cladding. CF or fiberglass would be considered FRP, P for plastic. I guess that is the closest. I suppose I should be more elaborate and explain it as urethane cladding.

And no, it is not simply a poured latex/silicone mold. No the entire mold isn't pictured. I posted a picture of what people can most associate with cladding. Now think of the negative of the male portion of the mold..........it wouldn't make much sense. Now if I wanted to turn this into a tutorial, I would post pictures of everything, but I am not.

And yes, with this mold, I can control the thickness of the part. How?? Well that's what I've been working on for 9 months to build upon. Now should I flip that mold over, you'll see how this mold is different. All the pictures I have do not expose what I did to make this work.

I appreciate your knowledge on the subject. I've seen you chime in on past discussions about vacuum infusion and the process involved. While you may have knowledge on the subject, I don't think it's fair for you to make assumptions and call BS on my project.

Should you have questions, by all means ask. But I guarantee you I'm not flying into this with blind hopes. I've done months of research with hours upon hours of discussions with engineers that do this for a living.

So again..........the answer is no to both your assumptions about it being for infusion and it being a simply poured mold.

Best regards,

 

[PPI Typhoon]

Re: Finally have a mold for making plastic cladding

Re: Finally have a mold for making plastic cladding

I'm sorry to come across as angry last night, but I always get people telling me "You can't do this." I got it with the Ultimate display project, the ALDL cables, and now this. If any of you know me (which some of you do), then you'll know that I get my mind set on something, I do it. It may take me a long time, but I will figure it out.

To clear it up, this is not the whole mold. This is just part of it that shows the shape of the cladding. If I showed the other parts of the mold it would do a few things.
First, it's confusing because you don't see the shape of the cladding. The other parts of the mold are the "business end" of it.

Second. Being the "business end" of it, it would also show all the tricks I've come up with over the past 9 months of research and development. While I am all about sharing information, I've invested a lot of time and money into this project and I can't give away everything.

Hope that clears up some things.

 

[mmp142965]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

keep up the good work! nice to see someone so dedicated to our cult following

 

[CarbonFiber AWD]

Re: Finally have a mold for making plastic cladding

Re: Finally have a mold for making plastic cladding

I'm sorry to come across as angry last night, but I always get people telling me "You can't do this." I got it with the Ultimate display project, the ALDL cables, and now this. If any of you know me (which some of you do), then you'll know that I get my mind set on something, I do it. It may take me a long time, but I will figure it out.

To clear it up, this is not the whole mold. This is just part of it that shows the shape of the cladding. If I showed the other parts of the mold it would do a few things.
First, it's confusing because you don't see the shape of the cladding. The other parts of the mold are the "business end" of it.

Second. Being the "business end" of it, it would also show all the tricks I've come up with over the past 9 months of research and development. While I am all about sharing information, I've invested a lot of time and money into this project and I can't give away everything.

Hope that clears up some things.

Fair enough Dan, thats why I started off with the remark .." correct me if I'm wrong here".
I wasn't attacking you. I was basically nudging your information path abit along. You did well in adding some additional facts. I too spent many years researching and working with many projects to find the niche that fit my interests and skill levels. Sounds like you found one for yours ?
Anyway, back to the molds. :tup: SO..........is it fair to say that business end that you were speaking of is plumbed for heat to speed or control cure times ? This how many of us have done Thermo plastics etc. Mold temps are crucial for product consistantcy. Old news to you with your research.
We have had to do variing projects at work for Resin Transer RTM and other smaller molds for Investment casting too. SO I'm a little familliar with some of the processes, but not all,for sure.
I think its great that its possible for you to make a better set of cladding since the carbon plastics that were such brittle crap on the sides of our trucks have all become obsolete. Even the NEW stuff I've bought online came out of the box with mounting tabs broken off and sitting at the bottom of the box !
Remember...I'm not attacting here....just discussing, just as if you and I were standing in front of each other talking about hobbies,for instance.
................V'

 

[bdydrpds10]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

keep up the good work! nice to see someone so dedicated to our cult following

:tup:

 

[PPI Typhoon]

Re: Finally have a mold for making plastic cladding

Re: Finally have a mold for making plastic cladding

Fair enough Dan, thats why I started off with the remark .." correct me if I'm wrong here".
I wasn't attacking you. I was basically nudging your information path abit along. You did well in adding some additional facts. I too spent many years researching and working with many projects to find the niche that fit my interests and skill levels. Sounds like you found one for yours ?
Anyway, back to the molds. :tup: SO..........is it fair to say that business end that you were speaking of is plumbed for heat to speed or control cure times ? This how many of us have done Thermo plastics etc. Mold temps are crucial for product consistantcy. Old news to you with your research.
We have had to do variing projects at work for Resin Transer RTM and other smaller molds for Investment casting too. SO I'm a little familliar with some of the processes, but not all,for sure.
I think its great that its possible for you to make a better set of cladding since the carbon plastics that were such brittle crap on the sides of our trucks have all become obsolete. Even the NEW stuff I've bought online came out of the box with mounting tabs broken off and sitting at the bottom of the box !
Remember...I'm not attacting here....just discussing, just as if you and I were standing in front of each other talking about hobbies,for instance.
................V'

Ok fair enough .I appreciate your elborating on things.

You mention plumbing for heating/cooling and cure times. This would be the case, but I'm not working with thermoplastics, but rather I am using thermosetting materials. So far, the exotherm from the curing process is pretty slight for the thickness of the parts. There are provisions in the mold that are thinner walls which allow me to monitor exotherm, which will allow me to judge my demolding time. I also specifically selected certain materials for the mold to withstand considerably high temperatures, so hopefully the mold won't be damaged.

The company I work for does injection molding and plastics extrusion so I've had a lot of resources available to me should I try to go down the route of injection molding with thermoplastics. I do have the beginnings to a small scale injection molding machine just with a machined block, heating elements, small auger drive, etc. I'm actually working with aluminum epoxy for the molds, which will be encasing plumbing to help reduce short shots and the like. It won't have the mold life of a machined mold, but I'm not looking to make 100k parts. I made a real quick aluminum epoxy mold a couple months ago....very very tough bugger. Not to mention the addition of the atmozed aluminum powder allowed for a larger volume of epoxy to be poured without kicking off prematurely.

As far as things like the mounting tabs, that's why I am not pulling parts yet. This is the next part of research......ways to improve the mounting tabs. That will determine whether I can use either a third mold for mounting tabs or change the closed mold to a 3-6 part mold with mounting tab provisions. I have had a hell of a time with my mounting tabs on my original pieces and it made me want to improve upon it. It's funny that you mention RTM because part of the mounting tab reinforcement will probably use an RTM setup to make an FRP insert that will go into the part. With all my work with closed molds now and already having all the equipment needed.....might as well use it. Just imagine a T shaped bracket with urethane plastic molded around it. I believe it would present a much stronger joint at the tabs.

Anyways, I'm going to try to pull a part this week to test some materials. I'll post pics when I do that.

 

[CarbonFiber AWD]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

I think your onto something there with the stronger mounting tab methods. Those areas were WAY too thin and had no engineering gone into there end users needs.
I think a tab that is thicker at its base and then becoming thinner towards its bolt holes ...will live longer and allow the installer some flexibility. Even in the event of a light crash.......the part might survive.Unlike if you breathe on the current cladding. :rant:
I feel your pain regarding the mounting tab multi-part molding needs and requirements. Thats a bitch for certain on any mold works like these. :squint:
Its a shame the TY and SY parts aren't ALL identical. SOunds like your going for the TY crowd. I only collected an additional set of cladding for the SY for my Infusion molds. But if I remember......its mainly the Ty's rear valance,rocker,and front bed corner ? Maybe also the bed rear corners too ? SO more than it seems.
It will be interesting if you could find a way to lighten and perhaps add strength by adding fillers to your plastics ? I only say this since some of the original parts do have some heft to them. I view this kind of like a resin rich composite part which is actually heavier and weaker than a perfect Infused ratio is, if this makes sense to read ?
...............V'

 

[PPI Typhoon]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

I think your onto something there with the stronger mounting tab methods. Those areas were WAY too thin and had no engineering gone into there end users needs.
I think a tab that is thicker at its base and then becoming thinner towards its bolt holes ...will live longer and allow the installer some flexibility. Even in the event of a light crash.......the part might survive.Unlike if you breathe on the current cladding. :rant:
I feel your pain regarding the mounting tab multi-part molding needs and requirements. Thats a bitch for certain on any mold works like these. :squint:
Its a shame the TY and SY parts aren't ALL identical. SOunds like your going for the TY crowd. I only collected an additional set of cladding for the SY for my Infusion molds. But if I remember......its mainly the Ty's rear valance,rocker,and front bed corner ? Maybe also the bed rear corners too ? SO more than it seems.
It will be interesting if you could find a way to lighten and perhaps add strength by adding fillers to your plastics ? I only say this since some of the original parts do have some heft to them. I view this kind of like a resin rich composite part which is actually heavier and weaker than a perfect Infused ratio is, if this makes sense to read ?
...............V'

Yes I am working on the Typhoon parts right now, but have some local contributors that will let me mold off their Syclone cladding once I hit that point. Should only be an additional 6 molds.

And I will work with fillers eventually. The more fillers I use, the more viscous it becomes, so I have also been dreaming up a machine for injection. I'm looking into a pneumatic piston driving into a mixing head of some sort. I actually have been lucky and acquired 2 meter mixing machines for free. I just need to figure out how the mix ratios are changed on them. For right now, I'm hand mixing the resins. I've drawn up the wheel arch in solidworks and figured the mass out to be about 26.4 cu in of material. That is about right because most plastics are around 24-27 cu in per pound of material. The stock piece hovers right around 1lb as well, so I think I'm pretty close. Mixing that small amount shouldn't be too tediuos. However the bumper is going to be the biggest challenge. I have the plan to use my mold design on that one as well, but the key is the gate and sprue configuration. It's going to be a pain in the rear to try to get all my bases covered there to prevent any voids. At quick glance, there doesn't appear to be any undercuts on the front bumper, so I could design the mold to be pressure assisted in filling. That would help a lot. One of the engineers says he'll be able to design me a pressure chamber to eventually move to a pressure casting, which would solve a lot of issues in regards to voids and whatnot.

As far as making the cladding lighter, I still think a resin infused fiberglass or CF would give you the proper resin-fabric ratio giving the best balance of weight and strength. I don't think I'm going to be able to use lightweight materials in my case. I have tested quite a few that have higher yields in regards to density, and they are quite brittle. I found another one that requires a post cure, but that requires an oven setup. That's just another step I'd have to take. So I'm more worried about getting a functional part by this summer to test out on some others' trucks to test for wear, heat resistance, etc.

 

[Syborg Twin Turbo]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

Can i jump in here and make some suggestion on the parts that are need more then anything.

There are people on this list that want parts, however don't really have the money to spend on them. You will never get rich making these parts. Buti don't think that is your goal.

I get ton's of call for cladding every month and i do my best to help people locate the parts that they are looking for. People call me from all over and tell me what they have and i list them in the garage sale page on sportmachines.com for them for free. I just want people to be able to find parts so they can get there trucks back together.

Currently i have new NOS Stock of the following parts
D-Side Fender
P-Side Fender
D-Side Door
P-Side Door
D-Side of Syclone Bed
P-Side of Syclone Bed

Used parts
Front & Rear Covers

Parts that are in huge Demand (if i was making molds like you are)
Typhoon
D-Side Rear Corner (alway's wanted)
P-Side Rear Corner (alway's wanted)

P-Side Typhon Rocker (1 / 2 calls a year)
D-Side Typhoon Rocker (1 / 2 calls a year)

P-Side Typhoon Eyebrow ( 1 Call a year )
D-Side Typhoon Eyebrow ( 1 Call a year )

Parts that people seldom need for a Typhoon
Front of Wheels Wells / Behind doors

Syclone Parts
P-Side Rocker ( alway's wanted )
D-Side Rocker ( alway's wanted )

This is only my suggestion and it's a way to help you offset the cost of pre-production.

 

[PPI Typhoon]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

Can i jump in here and make some suggestion on the parts that are need more then anything.

There are people on this list that want parts, however don't really have the money to spend on them. You will never get rich making these parts. Buti don't think that is your goal.

I get ton's of call for cladding every month and i do my best to help people locate the parts that they are looking for. People call me from all over and tell me what they have and i list them in the garage sale page on sportmachines.com for them for free. I just want people to be able to find parts so they can get there trucks back together.

Currently i have new NOS Stock of the following parts
D-Side Fender
P-Side Fender
D-Side Door
P-Side Door
D-Side of Syclone Bed
P-Side of Syclone Bed

Used parts
Front & Rear Covers

Parts that are in huge Demand (if i was making molds like you are)
Typhoon
D-Side Rear Corner (alway's wanted)
P-Side Rear Corner (alway's wanted)

P-Side Typhon Rocker (1 / 2 calls a year)
D-Side Typhoon Rocker (1 / 2 calls a year)

P-Side Typhoon Eyebrow ( 1 Call a year )
D-Side Typhoon Eyebrow ( 1 Call a year )

Parts that people seldom need for a Typhoon
Front of Wheels Wells / Behind doors

Syclone Parts
P-Side Rocker ( alway's wanted )
D-Side Rocker ( alway's wanted )

This is only my suggestion and it's a way to help you offset the cost of pre-production.

Thanks for the heads up.

I don't plan to get rich off of this. What my intention is would be to make cladding more affordble.

Even the small pieces of cladding seem to be going for a minimum of $250 unless it's broken. Front bumpers go for $400-$500 a piece. So far, I'm still on track for being able to bring this cladding to market for WAY cheaper. What scares people away is that they need to pay out the nose for cladding. If you read on the other forums, the issue of price is ALWAYS the #1 complaint next to the availability. I would like to solve both of those issues.

This was proven with the ALDL cables. It just started as me wanting to make my own because I know it's not worth $100+ for the adapter. Now over a year later, I've sold over 100 cables now and I am constantly getting requests. I NEVER would have imagined that they would keep selling like that. Oddly enough, they do. I don't make anything off those cables except enough to make yet another batch. I have a good job as it is and don't need something to suppliment it. I've invested over $5k in this project so far with 0 returns. I'm ok with that. I'm learning a lot and it's a hell of a lot of fun learning how to do this.

Plus, I'm planning not only reproducing the cladding, but all the mounting hardware, which I have been able to do successfully.

Who knows, maybe this won't work...... But go look on Ebay and see the one piece of new Syclone cladding (rear corner) with the reserve not met at $124, and a buy it now price of $250. I would be able to sell that piece for $75-$100.....maybe even less.

One difference is, I don't consider my time worth charging. I still have fun, spend time with my girlfriend, family, etc. But if I have a choice between wasting away in front of a TV or sleeping....I'd rather build cladding molds, ALDL cables, etc. :tup:

If I can't bring it to market cheaper than anyone else, then I won't do it. There's no point.

Just read the responses to threads like this: http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=37004&highlight=cladding

Hell, all of this started because I got rear-ended in the truck. For what I had to pay for 5 pieces of cladding that were damaged....I was shocked. Then I went to order from Paul's Select. However, right before then, he increased his prices. That turned me off. Why increase prices? Cost of materials?? Manufacturing costs?? I'm sorry, but I don't see any reason to increase prices, and then take the prices off the site, saying to call for price. WTF. Then I called him and never got a call back.

So anyways, so you people know my motivation. This isn't a get rich quick scheme. So far, it's a "make me poor" scheme. I'm ok with that though. I already even have someone that is willing to give me the rights to replicate his body kit on another vehicle (non SyTy) and I would be able to make and sell as many as I want. So doing this not only helps SyTy members, but also opens up a lot of doors.

 

[PPI Typhoon]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

Oh and just for the record, the plan is to also move on to things like the center console components, gauge bezels, etc. that are also hard to find. This isn't limited to cladding.

 

[Syborg Twin Turbo]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

i commend you for your efforts and i understand the money pit feeling as i've almost have so much money in the truck that i am building that i will never get it out of it. But hay like you said we do this because we like it.

 

[PPI Typhoon]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

i commend you for your efforts and i understand the money pit feeling as i've almost have so much money in the truck that i am building that i will never get it out of it. But hay like you said we do this because we like it.

Exactly. It's like a drug. :rotf:

 

[CarbonFiber AWD]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

Dan.....I would imagine that Pauls Select raised his prices due to the Resin costs skyrocketing these last few quarters. Its even worse for those of us utilizing Epoxy and Vinylester hybrids. It seems as though if a product has any petroleum distilates in its contents.....the prices are hostage to the oil game/scewing. :rant:
Good points made earlier about making parts simply AVAILABLE , so people can get their trucks representing their best.
I knew going into making the 14 infusion molds for the CF cladding that it would be "niche" marketed at best. I just wanted to show off my craft and lighten up the Sy and be able to reproduce panels if need be. And thats always a need, it seems. :squint: People backing up into it, sliding in ice into it.......you guys know what I mean . At least for the daily driven trucks.
Sounds like you might be hooked up for cost on your materials too ? That'll be sweet when the time comes for 50 gallon mixes for sure.
.............V'

 

[BigBadSmoosh]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

Oh and just for the record, the plan is to also move on to things like the center console components, gauge bezels, etc. that are also hard to find. This isn't limited to cladding.

problem is, if you bring things to market for that cheap, you will pretty much ruin whatever value these trucks do have. Collector cars/trucks are collectibles for a reason, a lack of good cladding is reason enough for these trucks to be collectibles in the future.

if someone made cheap cladding anyone with a blazer or jimmy could have a clone :tdown:

If people are so worried about wrecking their cladding, they shouldn't drive the trucks everyday. These are limited production trucks, not mass produced daily drivers, unfortunately very few people treat them as what they are.

eitherway, I commend your efforts, i'm happy with my collection of broken plastic, i might not have time to fix them, but even if I did.. unless I really needed the money I wouldn't sell them.

 

[warmpancakes]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

Depends on how well he does them them. GM pieces have GM markings if these truck become good dolar cars the markings will matter. And you can always tell a restored car from an original

 

[gkrcr882]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

Cladding for the masses!! Excellent work!!:tup:

 

[PPI Typhoon]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

problem is, if you bring things to market for that cheap, you will pretty much ruin whatever value these trucks do have. Collector cars/trucks are collectibles for a reason, a lack of good cladding is reason enough for these trucks to be collectibles in the future.

if someone made cheap cladding anyone with a blazer or jimmy could have a clone :tdown:

If people are so worried about wrecking their cladding, they shouldn't drive the trucks everyday. These are limited production trucks, not mass produced daily drivers, unfortunately very few people treat them as what they are.

eitherway, I commend your efforts, i'm happy with my collection of broken plastic, i might not have time to fix them, but even if I did.. unless I really needed the money I wouldn't sell them.

Yes they are limited production, but at what cost to those that own real Syclones or Typhoons?? I only do things because I experience the inconvenience or am backed into a corner by limited options.

Some people may be ok bending over and taking one for the team...........but not me. I'm about having options.

I appreciate your view on it, but it's a matter of weighing the pros and cons. As for the "original" cladding. I have filed down all the casting numbers on the cladding so that you can identify it if needed.

I look at it like classic camaros or mustangs. There are companies that still make stamped parts for these things. Now I go to car shows all the time and I say "damn, that's a nice car". When I see one that says "All original numbers"........it makes my jaw drop even more. Just because I know that someone got a new fender or hood for his classic, doesn't take away from my appreciation of the vehicle. These could be considered nothing more than "restoration" parts.

And let me clarify that I'm not arguing, but just explaining that I've gone over this many times in my own head. I just made the decision, again, based on my own experiences with these trucks.

 

[BigBadSmoosh]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

Yes they are limited production, but at what cost to those that own real Syclones or Typhoons?? I only do things because I experience the inconvenience or am backed into a corner by limited options.

Some people may be ok bending over and taking one for the team...........but not me. I'm about having options.

I appreciate your view on it, but it's a matter of weighing the pros and cons. As for the "original" cladding. I have filed down all the casting numbers on the cladding so that you can identify it if needed.

I look at it like classic camaros or mustangs. There are companies that still make stamped parts for these things. Now I go to car shows all the time and I say "damn, that's a nice car". When I see one that says "All original numbers"........it makes my jaw drop even more. Just because I know that someone got a new fender or hood for his classic, doesn't take away from my appreciation of the vehicle. These could be considered nothing more than "restoration" parts.

And let me clarify that I'm not arguing, but just explaining that I've gone over this many times in my own head. I just made the decision, again, based on my own experiences with these trucks.

If you can't afford to replace the parts you break, then don't break them... Trust me I am as cheap as they come, I just buy broken pieces of cladding and fix them..

I guess we each have our own way, I'm just stating that if the market becomes flooded with cladding, it will either kill the value or by some odd chance in hell make it sky rocket because its OEM...

eitherway, what you are doing is very cool, I'm just not sure I actually want you to succeed

 

[BigBadSmoosh]

Re: Finally have a mold for making urethane cladding

I look at it like classic camaros or mustangs. There are companies that still make stamped parts for these things. Now I go to car shows all the time and I say "damn, that's a nice car". When I see one that says "All original numbers"........it makes my jaw drop even more. Just because I know that someone got a new fender or hood for his classic, doesn't take away from my appreciation of the vehicle. These could be considered nothing more than "restoration" parts.

oh yeah, in response to that, sy/tys aren't camaros or mustangs, they are yenkos and shelby cobras... mass production != limited production. :tup: