Fake VINs Clone Thefts

[NOJIMMY]

...REPORTED in the News...

Law enforcement across the US are seeing a rash of car clonings, in which the
VIN of an auto is DUPLICATED on a stolen one. Miami police busted an $8 million
cloning ring as part of an 18 month investigation that has expanded into 7 other
states and Canada (arresting smugglers in Phoenix and drug traffickers in
Virginia Beach).

Thieves clone VINs - which are required by law to be displayed on the bottom of the
dashboard, and is also found on parts of the frame, - using bar code software, high
quality home printers, and metal stamping tools to create identical tags for stolen
vehicles of the SAME MAKE and MODEL (like syclones and typhoons).

Police officers, running a VIN, cant tell if it is hot. Counterfeiters target
high status rides like BMW X5, and General Motors` vehicles. And since
not all state vehicle databases are linked, thieves can retitle with the same
VIN in multiple states without setting off alarm bells. All of which makes
buying a USED vehicle (like a syclone, or typhoon) even dicier.

....definitely something to think about, since this site publishes VINs, and
everyone "wants" a "good buy" on a used Sy/Ty.

 

[blk00z28]

Re: Fake VINs Clone Thefts

Did you add the "(like syclones and typhoones)" to that, or was that in the article?

I, personally dont see a problem in other people doing it. Do not get me wrong. I think it is stupid and screwed up that they will clone something to this extent. But like anything else thats rare, make sure you do a complete search of the car/truck. I'm sure there are things that these cloners would miss on a syty that most of you guys would know about. I'm not saying they cant come onto this board and just look around. But most of you die hard syty dudes know where some stickers are, and whatnot that some/most of us might not know.

But they do need to link the database.

 

[NOJIMMY]

Re: Fake VINs Clone Thefts

The reason for posting this news article (and adding the SyTy reference)
was to "heighten" ones awareness about:

1. Buying previously owned SyTy`s (that owners are not knowledgeable on),
or for "parts", or on Dealer Lots/Yards (with missing/broken motors, or running
parts, cladding, etc).

2. Vin number computer checks are in themselves, not sufficient to discover
stolen vehicles (if cloning has occurred).

3. The accessibility of obtaining valid Vin numbers (to clone)

From the article, it hinted that GM vehicles are highly targeted. Since SyTys
didnt come with theft prevention (resister ignition keys, alarms, internal door
bars to prevent jimmy`ing, etc) nor are they hard to break into (e.g unlatching
the hood, breaking window, crowbar on door handle/lock, rear hatch on Ty)
AND resale value of parts is highly profitable (due to low parts supply of
cladding/production equipment) Theft/clone is more than possible.

Not only are these vehicles stolen, but insurance costs go up, and without
the possibility of Law Enforcement agencies to uncover/detect cloning,
identical Vins can exist in different states "completely licensed". The DMV
doesnt (to my knowledge) check remote places (like stamped frames).

So, in summary, stealing a Sy (for example), cloning the Vin, and re-licensing
in another state is highly possible (and since they "all look alike", whose to know).
Even if the "perk" sold it for parts, or complete for $5K, it would be a long time
before the theft might be uncovered. And if this site (unknowingly) furnished
good Vin numbers easily to crooks, we might want to re-think publishing/access
so easily (especially if/when "collector status" occurs). Many SyTy`s are
becoming "rusty", "damaged", or incorrectly modified as we speak, so eliminating
one more reason for loosing them is worth mentioning in my mind. I`d hate seeing
most of the good vehicles locked, trailored, or museum pieces (which has happend
to older muscle cars like the factory hemi`s, copo cameros, yenko chevelles/cameros,
etc). I once read, that there are ~1000 more 1967 big block corvettes now, than
what GM ever made.

just food for thought...

 

[soley277]

Re: Fake VINs Clone Thefts

I heard that in china they reproduce mercedes s classes, I wounder if they are capable of making a syty?

 

[Ian Turgeon]

Re: Fake VINs Clone Thefts

Sometimes even when you find parts that match a truck that was stolen weeks ago, even the cops cant do shit about it. Even when you have pics of the original truck and the parts now.... even when you can match the vin stamped on the tranny, sometimes they dont do shit.

Come to think of it I'm pretty sure you could get frustrated and burn your truck down w/o getting caught, even if you tell everyone your gonna burn it down in a forum.

I dont think we're in the practice of posting full VIN's too often, each truck has a different 'check digit' that you'd have to know or guess to clone it. So its not as easy as saying I have sy 2424 so the vin must be xxxxxx because one of the digets could be any letter/number

 

[soley277]

Re: Fake VINs Clone Thefts

Sometimes even when you find parts that match a truck that was stolen weeks ago, even the cops cant do shit about it. Even when you have pics of the original truck and the parts now.... even when you can match the vin stamped on the tranny, sometimes they dont do shit.

Come to think of it I'm pretty sure you could get frustrated and burn your truck down w/o getting caught, even if you tell everyone your gonna burn it down in a forum.

I dont think we're in the practice of posting full VIN's too often, each truck has a different 'check digit' that you'd have to know or guess to clone it. So its not as easy as saying I have sy 2424 so the vin must be xxxxxx because one of the digets could be any letter/number

how come they can't do shit?

 

[blk00z28]

Re: Fake VINs Clone Thefts

Sometimes even when you find parts that match a truck that was stolen weeks ago, even the cops cant do shit about it. Even when you have pics of the original truck and the parts now.... even when you can match the vin stamped on the tranny, sometimes they dont do shit.

Come to think of it I'm pretty sure you could get frustrated and burn your truck down w/o getting caught, even if you tell everyone your gonna burn it down in a forum.

I dont think we're in the practice of posting full VIN's too often, each truck has a different 'check digit' that you'd have to know or guess to clone it. So its not as easy as saying I have sy 2424 so the vin must be xxxxxx because one of the digets could be any letter/number

Thats weird, because when I have one of the guys on here get me a carfax, I just just the same vin up to the last 4 numbers for these trucks. I think I've done 3-4 this way already..

Maybe it comes back to him wrong and figures it our for me. But this check digit, is it just one number/letter/place in the vin or is it more then just one? (maybe this should be moved to a members only fourm or something seeing we're talking about this and the area where the id on the truck is. I know I've see a few of you not wanting to talk about that info, just because of stuff like this.)

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Fake VINs Clone Thefts

The thief can figure out the check digit if he really wants to. Its not a total secret how it is computed. I have a formula narrow down for syty so I just need to multiple 4 numbers and add them to a constant (rather than all 15 numbers multiplied and letters that have to be converted)

I have heard carfax will do it with the wrong check digit (or it may just skip that number because it is insignificant).

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Fake VINs Clone Thefts

how come they can't do shit?

My guess is that if its settled already, sometimes it more difficult with lawyers involved for the insurance company to fight over $12,000.

 

[blk00z28]

Re: Fake VINs Clone Thefts

I have heard carfax will do it with the wrong check digit (or it may just skip that number because it is insignificant).

Thats what I thought too.

 

[BlazerGT]

Re: Fake VINs Clone Thefts

Two comments:

About the check digit, it is the ninth digit in the VIN and it will be a number between 0-9. If you (or a thief) don't know how to compute it, all you have to do is carfax it and replace it from 0-9 until you get the right one. As far as carfax sometimes "doing it with the wrong check digit," they are not! Think about it this way: even if you don't know it, you still have a 10% chance of getting it right on your first guess.

As far as protecting legit syty VINs (such as published on sites like this) from being known by thieves or cloners, IMHO the barn door has been open for years and the horse is already out, the bad guys already know how to construct one.

Just my 2 cents

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Fake VINs Clone Thefts

Two comments:

About the check digit, it is the ninth digit in the VIN and it will be a number between 0-9. If you (or a thief) don't know how to compute it, all you have to do is carfax it and replace it from 0-9 until you get the right one. As far as carfax sometimes "doing it with the wrong check digit," they are not! Think about it this way: even if you don't know it, you still have a 10% chance of getting it right on your first guess.

As far as protecting legit syty VINs (such as published on sites like this) from being known by thieves or cloners, IMHO the barn door has been open for years and the horse is already out, the bad guys already know how to construct one.

The actual number of check digits is 11, their is also a X. IMO their isn't much worry about a SyTy being cloned and vin'd to be an original at this time, for a smart thief it is too expensive/labor intensive to convert a normal S-15 to make it worth anyone's while. The bigger problem I would see for SyTy would be a stolen truck that is re-vin'd.

 

[blk00z28]

Re: Fake VINs Clone Thefts

Yeah, thats true. With the amount of money just spend in the cladding they would probably rethink their idea.

 

[JAY]

Re: Fake VINs Clone Thefts

The actual number of check digits is 11, their is also a X. IMO their isn't much worry about a SyTy being cloned and vin'd to be an original at this time, for a smart thief it is too expensive/labor intensive to convert a normal S-15 to make it worth anyone's while. The bigger problem I would see for SyTy would be a stolen truck that is re-vin'd.

Or sold for parts. I think I remember back when I first joined this site a guy in CA or NV that had rebuilt and was trying to sell, a stolen SY from a member here. They showed police where to check for all the vin locations and they still couldn't do anything about it. I don't remember all the details.

 

[ZR9Z79]

Re: Fake VINs Clone Thefts

This is interesting info, as I have found 3 faked Sy/Ty's in Canada in the last year. One actually had an 86 Blazer vin attached to it.

Thankfully, I have a friend at GM that can check any vins, and has steered me away from some salvaged,stolen, or possible fakes.

BTW, what is the purpose of the check digit? And what does it mean? Check Autotrader.com and you will see 2, 3, 4, as the 9th digit of the vin.

Jay