Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)
- Thread starter UR50SLO
- Start date
Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)
how about you make like a mini flywheel to bolt in between the balancer and pulley. cut(renz waterjet) a 1/16" thick round plate with balancer bolt holes and center hole cut. then cut a thick(3/8"?) ring with notches and tack weld it to the perimeter of the thinner piece. maybe the thick ring can have an internal diameter the same as the external diameter of the thin plate that gets sandwiched between the pulley and balancer. or just make the ring smaller(or plate bigger) and weld them lapped.
other option:
cut a notched ring and tack weld it to the inside of the crank pulley, right next to where the belt goes, not between the balancer and pulley. someone could even make these. put a pulley on a jig, and tack weld the ring on.
how about you make like a mini flywheel to bolt in between the balancer and pulley. cut(renz waterjet) a 1/16" thick round plate with balancer bolt holes and center hole cut. then cut a thick(3/8"?) ring with notches and tack weld it to the perimeter of the thinner piece. maybe the thick ring can have an internal diameter the same as the external diameter of the thin plate that gets sandwiched between the pulley and balancer. or just make the ring smaller(or plate bigger) and weld them lapped.
other option:
cut a notched ring and tack weld it to the inside of the crank pulley, right next to where the belt goes, not between the balancer and pulley. someone could even make these. put a pulley on a jig, and tack weld the ring on.
UR50SLO
V6+2=LSXCamaro
Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)
From that outer back part on a Stock Typhoon ballancer there is 1 1/8 to 1 1/16 between the very back side of the ballancer where all the holes are to the front of the Timing Chain cover. I just mocked it up with a cover/stock ballancer a few min. ago.
If the trigger wheel was another 1/2 taller than the ballancer and 1/2 to 3/4 thick there'd be plenty of room for a little "wiggle" from a stock ballancer/crank walk and still be able to have a solid trigger.
I've seen ballancers move on the rubber but it sure takes alot of force or a ballancer that is bad to do that. It'd happen over a long period of time. I'd have good confidence in mounting it up on that outer ring with a good used/new ballancer. Stock ballancer's can't be very expensive.
* If there's that much of a worry you can always mark the trigger wheel and the bottom of the ballancer there with a allignment mark so if there's a timing change you can go back and see if the allignment marks have moved. Or check them once in awhile.*
There's our dementions... Next step!
~Scott~
From that outer back part on a Stock Typhoon ballancer there is 1 1/8 to 1 1/16 between the very back side of the ballancer where all the holes are to the front of the Timing Chain cover. I just mocked it up with a cover/stock ballancer a few min. ago.
If the trigger wheel was another 1/2 taller than the ballancer and 1/2 to 3/4 thick there'd be plenty of room for a little "wiggle" from a stock ballancer/crank walk and still be able to have a solid trigger.
I've seen ballancers move on the rubber but it sure takes alot of force or a ballancer that is bad to do that. It'd happen over a long period of time. I'd have good confidence in mounting it up on that outer ring with a good used/new ballancer. Stock ballancer's can't be very expensive.
* If there's that much of a worry you can always mark the trigger wheel and the bottom of the ballancer there with a allignment mark so if there's a timing change you can go back and see if the allignment marks have moved. Or check them once in awhile.*
There's our dementions... Next step!
~Scott~
turbodig
Active member
Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)
The problem is bolting it to balancers that have already moved. Someone is gonna bolt it to a balancer, not have it work, and whine because it doesn't. (Can you tell I've worked in support for the last 15 years?) I'd rather avoid that whole situation by mounting to the inside hub.
Further, the outer ring moves a lot under normal operation... that's what it's supposed to do. We don't want it timed to the outer ring of the balancer, we want it timed to the crank.
I'm betting there would be a hell of a lot of spark scatter on the outer ring.
If we can get a 1/2" wheel between the inner ring and the cover, we're still in business.
Attach it to the 3 bolt holes on the inside of the balancer, and we're set. I'm not sure there's enough clearance between the inner ring and the cover .. is there?
As an aside... this pretty much has to be mocked up on a block with the crank in it, and the cover on.... that's the only for sure way to know. You can kinda tell from the groove in the balancer where it rode on the seal, but that's not what I'd call an accurate dimension.
Can someone mic/caliper the seal surface of the balancer? That should be our inner hole dimension for the wheel- It'll locate the wheel to keep it centered regardless of what the bolts do.
Someone mentioned welding to the pulley... this would work, and would make for a relatively simple install. Problem is, the sensor bracket would be a loooong ways from the block. If the sensor moves even a tiny amount (like .050) in relation to the wheel, you'll get a false trigger. A false trigger in the wrong spot could be a very bad thing.
UR50SLO said:
The problem is bolting it to balancers that have already moved. Someone is gonna bolt it to a balancer, not have it work, and whine because it doesn't. (Can you tell I've worked in support for the last 15 years?) I'd rather avoid that whole situation by mounting to the inside hub.
Further, the outer ring moves a lot under normal operation... that's what it's supposed to do. We don't want it timed to the outer ring of the balancer, we want it timed to the crank.
I'm betting there would be a hell of a lot of spark scatter on the outer ring.
If we can get a 1/2" wheel between the inner ring and the cover, we're still in business.
Attach it to the 3 bolt holes on the inside of the balancer, and we're set. I'm not sure there's enough clearance between the inner ring and the cover .. is there?
As an aside... this pretty much has to be mocked up on a block with the crank in it, and the cover on.... that's the only for sure way to know. You can kinda tell from the groove in the balancer where it rode on the seal, but that's not what I'd call an accurate dimension.
Can someone mic/caliper the seal surface of the balancer? That should be our inner hole dimension for the wheel- It'll locate the wheel to keep it centered regardless of what the bolts do.
Someone mentioned welding to the pulley... this would work, and would make for a relatively simple install. Problem is, the sensor bracket would be a loooong ways from the block. If the sensor moves even a tiny amount (like .050) in relation to the wheel, you'll get a false trigger. A false trigger in the wrong spot could be a very bad thing.
turbodig
Active member
Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)
Too thin. 3/8" min.
I was always gonna have the wheel notches machined into the inner ring on the back itself.
This would require a ~$50 balancer, plus machine costs. That might not be the worst idea...
MikeRenz said:
Too thin. 3/8" min.
I was always gonna have the wheel notches machined into the inner ring on the back itself.
This would require a ~$50 balancer, plus machine costs. That might not be the worst idea...
JSM
Active member
Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)
I have Daron's old 4.3 with balancer laying around in garage. If I can get time I can get pics, dimensions and a clear shot of it all mounted on the stand.
I'd be willing to do more, mock up test, but my time right now for extra projects seems to be very small, well motivation is also.
I have Daron's old 4.3 with balancer laying around in garage. If I can get time I can get pics, dimensions and a clear shot of it all mounted on the stand.
I'd be willing to do more, mock up test, but my time right now for extra projects seems to be very small, well motivation is also.
turbodig
Active member
Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)
Problem is, most of that 3/8 is inside the timing cover. About half of that gray colored area is inside the cover. Or were you talking about the inner ring?
You could machine the 4 7/8" inner ring down and replace the machined part with a wheel. That would work.
I've just been trying to avoid messing with the balancer.
MikeRenz said:
Problem is, most of that 3/8 is inside the timing cover. About half of that gray colored area is inside the cover. Or were you talking about the inner ring?
You could machine the 4 7/8" inner ring down and replace the machined part with a wheel. That would work.
I've just been trying to avoid messing with the balancer.
UR50SLO
V6+2=LSXCamaro
Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)
Oh god.. do't let Jimmy see that! :rotf:
The Buick's have a thin metal reluctor/trigger ring that's pressed onto the ballancer on the inside edge(where it go's into the cover) *small end* and bent 90deg to make a flat surface for the flat part to swipe through the sensor.I think it's about .80 thick
I could put a set of calipers on it real quick to check the actual thickness.
There's room on our ballancer for that being pressed on. It won't be a water jetted peice.
It could use a buick sensor as well. .
It'd be best pressed and setup on a new ballancer.
Just mor thoughts.
~Scott
JS Manufacturing said:
Oh god.. do't let Jimmy see that! :rotf:
The Buick's have a thin metal reluctor/trigger ring that's pressed onto the ballancer on the inside edge(where it go's into the cover) *small end* and bent 90deg to make a flat surface for the flat part to swipe through the sensor.I think it's about .80 thick
I could put a set of calipers on it real quick to check the actual thickness.
There's room on our ballancer for that being pressed on. It won't be a water jetted peice.
It could use a buick sensor as well. .
It'd be best pressed and setup on a new ballancer.
Just mor thoughts.
~Scott
NecroWolf
lost marbles member
Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)
we could use the the thin plate but bend the ends over so that it'll make the 3/8 min that you want.i think it was the buick 3.1 that does this. is there enough clearance on the crank inside the timing chain cover? i work on the mechanical 6.5 turbo desiel all the time with the 4l80e tranny and it pulls it's speed sensor from inside the timing chain cover. of course the cover is a larger cast plate but those are just a couple thoughts from my bandwidth limited world
we could use the the thin plate but bend the ends over so that it'll make the 3/8 min that you want.i think it was the buick 3.1 that does this. is there enough clearance on the crank inside the timing chain cover? i work on the mechanical 6.5 turbo desiel all the time with the 4l80e tranny and it pulls it's speed sensor from inside the timing chain cover. of course the cover is a larger cast plate but those are just a couple thoughts from my bandwidth limited world
turbodig
Active member
Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)
Sensor looks like this. The Fords have lots of different mounting options.
Nothing's saying we couldn't aim this at a wheel with holes drilled in it, rather than a toothed wheel. That makes a sliding bracket for timing it tough, though.
sytyguy said:
Sensor looks like this. The Fords have lots of different mounting options.
Nothing's saying we couldn't aim this at a wheel with holes drilled in it, rather than a toothed wheel. That makes a sliding bracket for timing it tough, though.
sytyguy
Moderated User
Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)
Click for larger pic.
Not the best pics I've ever taken, but they should help. The 4th pic shows a wrench in between the cover and balancer.....it was a tight fit and measured out at about .300 thick.
Note - this was a spare block I had from a '90 Blazer.....balancer & cover too.
Hood
Click for larger pic.
Not the best pics I've ever taken, but they should help. The 4th pic shows a wrench in between the cover and balancer.....it was a tight fit and measured out at about .300 thick.
Note - this was a spare block I had from a '90 Blazer.....balancer & cover too.
Hood
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