A/C compressor upgrade?

[WyoSyclone]

Well, driving the Sy to work on Friday and front bearing in my A/C compressor starts squealing. Found out this summer that the A/C wasn't working and guessed a pressure switch or re-charge was in order (R-406).

Anyway, since I'm beating my head against a wall thinking of how to do a new cold air intake with the stock A/C hoses I decided it's a good time to swap them with Aeroquip hoses, and re-route them.

I'm going to use this adaptor



and use these hoses



Does anyone know of a good upgrade/replacement for the Harrison compressor on our SyTy's? I think I'll probably go with r-406, rather than r-134.


.. dang I wish I could get these images to show up correctly... One time they will and the next they won't.... operator error, I'm sure


This post.... http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34051&highlight=a/c+compressor ....shows some of the parts I want to use. PM'd Schavez to see if he ever finished his up.

 

[blk00z28]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

I think I read a while back that someone on here did this mod, with the lines that is. And they had problems with the adaptor either leaking or not fitting right or something.. :dunno: You'll have to do a little searching, I think it might have been in the thread that Hood started talking about a gp on braded lines. But I'm not sure.

In the future, I'm going to try and mock up some Buick lines and see if I can push all of the lines more towards the pass side. That way when I do route the IC piping they wont be in the way as much. But it wont be for a while until I can get around to doing this.

 

[WyoSyclone]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

Curious about how you arrived at your decision to use R-406A. I've never encountered it in any systems, so I don't have any practical experience with it.

Here's what my "Alternative Refrigerants" guide says about it:
ASHRAE#: R-406A (22/142b/600a), Trade name: GHG, Mfg: Peoples Welding Supply, Replaces: CFC-12, Type: Blend (HIGH GLIDE), Lubricant: Mineral Oil or Alkylbenzene, Applications: Retrofits, and finally, Comments: "Can segregate to flammable composition".

That's the effect of the Butane (R600a). The only benifit is see is the compatability with mineral oil. It appears that the primary refrigerant is R-22. This is terrible in a system that has rubber hoses, because the molecules of 22 are so small they go right through the hoses. (R-22 was seldom used in 'mobile' systems because of this issue. Mobile systems typically incorporate rubber hoses). Hence the "high glide". This means that the componets of the 'blend' tend to dissipate at different rates, and the remaining mixture may have different / hazardous traits than the original mixture or "blend". The 'flamability' would be a concern to me, in a 'mobile' application. It's the ONLY R12-replacement refrigerant listed (of 7) that has this 'comment'. 22 is also tough on R12 compressors. (Much higher head pressures).

If you don't like 134, think about R416A. It's a small glide replacement, that contains <1% propane (600). I've used it in my DD's for about 5 years now. It requires dropping the pressure switch cut-out press to about 16-18PSI, and an oil change to PAG or Ester, but works well with high ambients, and hasn't seemed to be too tough on the HR100s, or PA20 (Corvette) compressors that I've used it in. Last time I checked it was about $195.00 for 30lbs. (Less than 134)

Anyway, interested in your thoughts....
Dave

Hey Dave,
Yes, my bad... I was not remembering an old article correctly... R-406 was supplanted by r-409, and now 4-416.... R-406 was about 4% propane.... not really enough to do much damage from what I could find in different tech. journals.....worst thing was that if you had any type of small leak, different 'ingredients' of the 406 mix would 'leak out'. Apparently that's why the OEM's went with the 134.... however, it looks like the r-416 may have some merit in retrofit applications.

It appears there may be some good 7-piston compressors out there, which may bolt up, and which would be a huge improvement over our Harrison 100's. I'd be interested in any light you could shed on this subject for me.... I have found a few good posts with some data, but they're pretty old.

Thanks,
Rob

 

[James Thomas]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

Search AUTOFROST, here on the board and the web www.autofrost.com , also search NACAT NEWS. I have been using it and been a dealer for it since 97'. It does contain the trace amounts of R600a and "Can segregate to flammable composition" that you mention but in fact of actual use, almost never does. Even if it did sit unused long enough to segregate, it would be less flammable than the alky in the kits we install under the hood and I highly doubt that it would light off at all (because don’t live or drive in a test tube). Besides, you should run your A/C for ten minutes or so every few weeks (even in the winter) so it's a practical non-issue in the real world.

Other than that your guide sounds a little old / not accurate since there have been refinements to the product over the years. It (Auto Frost) cools better than R-134a and requires no changes at all to an R-12 system, also can be used to "top off" a current functioning R-12 system without evac..... across the board compatiability, not even an oil change. Also due to the thermal dynamic properties of the blend, it requires LESS product to achieve the same or better level of cooling.

I have used the R416a and I’m not saying it won’t work….. it will! I just do not like for the reason listed above: "It requires dropping the pressure switch cut-out press to about 16-18PSI, and an oil change to PAG or Ester" This is not a simple oil change like most folks are thinking of as in “pull the drain plug, put in new / different oil and be done with it”. Any refrigerant oil "type" change (in this case from mineral to PAG or Ester) requires at the least a very complete and though system flush and evac using the proper (read expensive” flush chemicals and service procedures, also any good A/C tech will also tell you the receiver / drier or accumulator should be replaced at this point (more money). If any of the two oil types "mix" you will be in for trouble as they ARE NOT COMPATIBLE. A little contamination will go for quite a few years. More will decrease the life span of the entire system… compressor included! See this link for lab test info:
( http://www.autofrost.com/hotshot/index.html ) and really should have system components replaced other than the pressure cut out switch to be a correct retrofit due to the years of chloride build up in an R-12 system.

Bottom line: Autofrost is a product that works and works great, can be used by the owner at home without extra expense of replacement parts / flushing / A/C specialty equipment and is simple as the "old R-12 can tap & guages". That's my professional opinion based on as of last week, my wife’s Ty that was "retrofit" # 326 for my shop since 1999. It's by no means the only replacement for R-12 but for the fella that wants to do it him self or doesn't trust the "average shop" with his baby, I feel it's the best. By the way, if I thought that there was ANY danger of a flammability problem, I would not use it on any ones ride, little the one my wife drives my kids around in. :2cents:

_________________
James R. THomas
Windsock Inc.
J&J Auto & Industrial
Island Cycle & Performance

 

[WyoSyclone]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

James and Dave,
Thanks for all that great info. James, I'd read your thoughts previously on the AutoFrost and was racking my brain trying to remember who it was... thanks for posting - looks like that's the way I'll go - I wasn't too happy about trying to lower the cut-out pressure and doing the flush procedure.
(maybe a mod could make an A/C sticky out of your AutoFrost writeup)

A/C is one of those things that I just haven't played around with much in all of my mechanic years.

Has anyone installed the braided lines in order to get additional clearance for a fresh-air intake? Has anyone swapped to a more efficient, or smaller, compressor?

 

[James Thomas]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

The Autofrost works real well for guys that have a good functiong system and just need to "top up" or due a minor repair and don't want to hassel a full on retro fit or pay to have it done. Most gear head's know how to use a can tap or simple guages but lack the special tools or knowledge to go much farther. I haven't tried a 10PA but if that bracket is correct it would likley work and be more better but like Dave, I'm not for sure. We don't have any Chevy's out here so it makes it hard for me to experiment!

__________
James

 

[UR50SLO]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

Since there seems to be alot of knowledge on the A/C stuff here.....

I've done about everything I can think of with the wife's Typhoon. New compressor,condensor,converted to 134A.. ect.

Two things I don't like... There's not alot of air coming out of the vents. (New blower motor&cage)
and it's not real cold. The lines out in the engine bay are cold.. but it's just not enough to cool down a black truck in the summer.
Second thing is the compressor realy drags down the engine. I can set things up on Tuner Pro (idle compensation/timing) but it sure seems like ALOT for just running the A/C.

Now... our 98 Jimmy you can't tell much. It's nice and cold.... and the engine does not seem near as effected when on as the Typhoon.
There's a guy on here that used all newer 98 Accrys on his Typhoon engine and it all fits with intake ect.
Are the newer compressors more effecent than the old one's?
I was sure looking into switching to the newer front accyrs this winter as a upgrade so the darn A/C works right for her this summer.
Thanks for any input,
Scott~

 

[James Thomas]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

Well Scott, as with anything else on our trucks there could be several reasons. On the "There's not a lot of air coming out of the vents. (New blower motor & cage)", this has nothing to do with the compressor (unless your evaporator is freezing up - doubtful). So let's check several things.
1. Make sure the cowl vent area under the windshield wipers is not plugged with debris.
2. Make sure all the vac connections for the air door are in good condition and not leaking.
3. Make sure the air door it's self is moving correctly and that it is actually switching from vent to defrost to floor etc.
4. If all the above checks out ok then the only thing can restrict air flow / volume through the vents is a dirty / clogged evap. (depending on your local conditions) this may or may not be the case.

In any event lets try to solve the air volume problem first because this may at the same time solve the temp issue, or at least part of it and needs to be corrected before actual temp and system pressure tests are done. I'll help you out as much as can be done via "remote control" so just let me know how your troubleshooting is going and or questions.

Here are several questions you need to think about if we need to go into the system for actual operation and temp related problems:

Do you have a factory GM service manual (not the Haynes / Chilton!)? If not you need one.
Did you do the 134a conversion work or was it done by a shop and was the A/C temp and air volume ok before the retro fit?
Do you have gauges / know how to use them?
Got some simple elec. test tool like 12v test light, some alligator clamp jumper wires and a digital volt meter? How about an A/C vent thermometer

Let me know!


___________
James

 

[mattw]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

Second thing is the compressor realy drags down the engine. I can set things up on Tuner Pro (idle compensation/timing) but it sure seems like ALOT for just running the A/C.

Now... our 98 Jimmy you can't tell much. It's nice and cold.... and the engine does not seem near as effected when on as the Typhoon.

Scott,

I have noticed this to be true on every 1st gen that I have had experience with. Including sy/tys. I always attributed it to a horribly inefficient compressor but that is purely a guess.

I'm going with 2nd gen accessories & a/c pump on my clone as I'm hoping that will eliminate the massive engine drag that our stock setup has and the intake that I am using requires that the the air inlet piping head right in @ the center & this would interfere with the 1st gen tensioner.

I also have a 99 Jimmy and it blows extremely cold and you can not notice any power loss/drag when the a/c is on.


-Matt

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

But is there an alternate compressor that would fit in the stock location but be better than stock?

 

[UR50SLO]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

Scott,

I have noticed this to be true on every 1st gen that I have had experience with. Including sy/tys. I always attributed it to a horribly inefficient compressor but that is purely a guess.

That's my take on the problem too. Our newer one with far less power hardly flenches when A/C is engauged. The Typhoon almost dies. I can change that in Tuner Pro but dang.. it's horrible.

I've been all though the doors... Replaced all the foam that was rotten and checked all the doors for proper open/shut. The evap is still a little dirty. It could use a new one or a real hardy cleaning.
Our newer truck seems to have a nice thick rubber blanket around the evap housing. I'd think this would keep the (cold) temps in and heat out better than our regular fiberglass unit. Also the newer blower motor/cage/speed regulator is a better design.
I'm going to have all this $hit out of my way this winter so I'll do the update then. I think I'll have a cooler inside and less drag on the engine since I've done everything I can think of to correct it with what I have.
I am certified in A/C. I don't have the 134A equipment so I let a local shop suck it down and do the proper retrofit to it. Had it checked/rechecked several times. The pressures were spec. when I was watching them.
Thanks again fellas for the input... I think I'm stuck with changing out the parts for newer design.
~Scott

 

[WyoSyclone]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

Well guys,
After searching all day for a compressor upgrade for our SyTy's, I've given up.... that is if one wants to keep the A2W intercooler, and keep the compressor in its stock mounting location.... So, I guess I'm going to buy a new compressor (or have the bearing in this one rebuilt), then go with the braided hoses.... and a set of compressor hose adapters http://www.hotrodair.com/index.cfm/...category_id=10/home_id=2/mode=prod/prd111.htm

 

[James Thomas]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

That's my take on the problem too. Our newer one with far less power hardly flenches when A/C is engauged. The Typhoon almost dies. I can change that in Tuner Pro but dang.. it's horrible.

I've been all though the doors... Replaced all the foam that was rotten and checked all the doors for proper open/shut. The evap is still a little dirty. It could use a new one or a real hardy cleaning.
Our newer truck seems to have a nice thick rubber blanket around the evap housing. I'd think this would keep the (cold) temps in and heat out better than our regular fiberglass unit. Also the newer blower motor/cage/speed regulator is a better design.
I'm going to have all this $hit out of my way this winter so I'll do the update then. I think I'll have a cooler inside and less drag on the engine since I've done everything I can think of to correct it with what I have.
I am certified in A/C. I don't have the 134A equipment so I let a local shop suck it down and do the proper retrofit to it. Had it checked/rechecked several times. The pressures were spec. when I was watching them.
Thanks again fellas for the input... I think I'm stuck with changing out the parts for newer design.
~Scott

I agree and there is no doubt the 2nd gen. is a better overall setup but my 48,000 mile Ty (with Autofrost) would freeze your ass off and it's a constant 80-90 deg. here with 80%+ humidity. Then on day it was not as cold and when I checked the air box, my foam was "dry rotted" and coming apart all over the inside. Moral? Even low mile SyTy are still getting oldand you have to check everything because one problem can hurt, several can be a HUGE difference!

On the dying (or almost) issue when the compressor cycles, sounds like there may be other issue / issues such as compressor or acc. drive "drag" (maybe idler cuasing extra load etc.), idle air control related to the A/C idle up, vacume problem or ? My "Minty" Ty has no problem at all and the only way you would know the A/C is even on is the clutch click and if you are watching the tach, about a 50-100 rpm dip.The Sy would almost die. I pulled the belt and the idler was real stiff but not noisy. That helped but not a lot. Swapped the IAC and BINGO!

Gotta check ALL related items because a properly operating systems (all things included) shouldn't cause the engine to do the "death dance" just by turning on the A/C. For those of you with lots of mods..... gotta check you tune!

__________
James

 

[WyoSyclone]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

The Autofrost works real well for guys that have a good functiong system and just need to "top up" or due a minor repair and don't want to hassel a full on retro fit or pay to have it done. Most gear head's know how to use a can tap or simple guages but lack the special tools or knowledge to go much farther. I haven't tried a 10PA but if that bracket is correct it would likley work and be more better but like Dave, I'm not for sure. We don't have any Chevy's out here so it makes it hard for me to experiment!

__________
James

Hey James,
Thanks for all of your good info in this thread. Looks like I'm going to be buying a new compressor... and of course drier/accumulator. I'm getting ready to do a battery relocate to the driver's side to make room for a fresh air setup...

Do you see any problem in moving the drier/accumulator to a new location in order to clean up this side of the engine compartment??

I'm thinking once I get the battery and vacuum ball moved I should have plenty of room to stick the accumulator some place out of the way. I am planning on switching all of the A/C lines to braided stainless from Vintage, Kennys, or NAPA....

Thanks,
Rob

 

[James Thomas]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

No problem on the relocation, common in the custom rod scene. Don't forget to replace the orfice tube! I know it's a pain to get out sometimes but i have seen so many problems with a new A/C install / repair that came down to a $5 orfice that should have been replaced.

Good luck!

_________
James

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

orifice tube? got a pic?

 

[WyoSyclone]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

orifice tube? got a pic?

copied from another site....

"ORIFICE TUBE

The orifice tube, probably the most commonly used, can be found in most GM and Ford models. It is located in the inlet tube of the evaporator, or in the liquid line, somewhere between the outlet of the condenser and the inlet of the evaporator. This point can be found in a properly functioning system by locating the area between the outlet of the condenser and the inlet of the evaporator that suddenly makes the change from hot to cold. You should then see small dimples placed in the line that keep the orifice tube from moving. Most of the orifice tubes in use today measure approximately three inches in length and consist of a small brass tube, surrounded by plastic, and covered with a filter screen at each end. It is not uncommon for these tubes to become clogged with small debris. While inexpensive, usually between three to five dollars, the labor to replace one involves recovering the refrigerant, opening the system up, replacing the orifice tube, evacuating and then recharging. With this in mind, it might make sense to install a larger pre filter in front of the orifice tube to minimize the risk of of this problem reoccurring. Some Ford models have a permanently affixed orifice tube in the liquid line. These can be cut out and replaced with a combination filter/orifice assembly."

I haven't looked in the shop manual for the Sy to see exactly where ours is.

 

[Foot Performance]

Re: A/C compressor upgrade?

Hey Rob if you want a GM compressor I can get one for you. Not cheap cheap but cheap for a New GM compressor