Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

[epix]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

Basically here is the damage done:
Block - Needs to be honed, thus need new piston rings
Crank - Bent.. I need a new crank
Rods - Eagle H-Beam Rods need to be replaced
Main Caps - 2 Center Main caps were damaged so I need to replace them
Bearings - pretty much all toasted so need to be replaced
Oil Pump - of course needs to be replaced with an M-Select pump this time.

 

[ed hess]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

Basically here is the damage done:
Block - Needs to be honed, thus need new piston rings
Crank - Bent.. I need a new crank
Rods - Eagle H-Beam Rods need to be replaced
Main Caps - 2 Center Main caps were damaged so I need to replace them
Bearings - pretty much all toasted so need to be replaced
Oil Pump - of course needs to be replaced with an M-Select pump this time.

Being the only other person that had this exact scenario happen I gotta ask.

whats the runout on the crank now vs before?

Did they mag the rods ? any cracks?

What happend to the 2 main caps? bearing spun inside beyond repair?

also make sure you change out all your oil lines, cleaning wont do it!

I aasume you read my write up on the other website i posted the link to.

Any idea how long you drove it without oil pressure?

fwiw i had a autometer warning light smack -dab ( dont ask the meaning of this) in front of my face to draw my attention to my gauge if the oil pressure ever hit a low of 30psi. This probably gave me a 1 second window.. In my case the light came on as a just crossed the traps.

I just didnt have the carnage your saying you have.

I dont remember what the et was when it happened to me but i kinda recall it was a good run. lol

ed

ps i didnt get anything from melling (including a lousy tshirt)

 

[4C FED]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

Basically here is the damage done:
Block - Needs to be honed, thus need new piston rings

On the rings, it depends on if there is any deep scratches.
I asked this question before when I tore my motor down and several people (Hood was one of them) advised me to just have the glaze broken on the cylinders & reuse the rings. So I did & it worked fine.

 

[epix]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

Being the only other person that had this exact scenario happen I gotta ask.

whats the runout on the crank now vs before?

Did they mag the rods ? any cracks?

What happend to the 2 main caps? bearing spun inside beyond repair?

also make sure you change out all your oil lines, cleaning wont do it!

I aasume you read my write up on the other website i posted the link to.

Any idea how long you drove it without oil pressure?

fwiw i had a autometer warning light smack -dab ( dont ask the meaning of this) in front of my face to draw my attention to my gauge if the oil pressure ever hit a low of 30psi. This probably gave me a 1 second window.. In my case the light came on as a just crossed the traps.

I just didnt have the carnage your saying you have.

I dont remember what the et was when it happened to me but i kinda recall it was a good run. lol

ed

ps i didnt get anything from melling (including a lousy tshirt)

I'm not too knowledgeable with engines so if the answers seem weird that my fault.. I'll post what I know.

The crank was ground 10 before all this happened.
The rods were brand new, but after this incident when you looked at them the far end rods were a different (darker) color indicating they got very hot.
The main caps I had pinned, but even so the main cap was spun.. I am going 4 bolt splayed this time around. Not exactly how the 2 center mains were damaged but I am trusting what the machine shop says.

I did read the other posts you made.. I am willing to bet after Melling gets the pump in their possession they will say it was not their fault and case closed.. but I really have no other choice. I'm not sure how far I could have drove w/ no oil pressure.. I was on my way to SyTy Homecoming and just stopped at Walmart to get some supplies.. was running fine, 5-10 miles later I looked down and saw no pressure and temps were up so I pulled over and got it towed home.

Ed, what info did Melling say to you? I have been communicating with George.. he sent me a form I need to fill out, did you get this form?

 

[ed hess]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

I'm not too knowledgeable with engines so if the answers seem weird that my fault.. I'll post what I know.

The crank was ground 10 before all this happened.
The rods were brand new, but after this incident when you looked at them the far end rods were a different (darker) color indicating they got very hot.
The main caps I had pinned, but even so the main cap was spun.. I am going 4 bolt splayed this time around. Not exactly how the 2 center mains were damaged but I am trusting what the machine shop says.

I did read the other posts you made.. I am willing to bet after Melling gets the pump in their possession they will say it was not their fault and case closed.. but I really have no other choice. I'm not sure how far I could have drove w/ no oil pressure.. I was on my way to SyTy Homecoming and just stopped at Walmart to get some supplies.. was running fine, 5-10 miles later I looked down and saw no pressure and temps were up so I pulled over and got it towed home.

Ed, what info did Melling say to you? I have been communicating with George.. he sent me a form I need to fill out, did you get this form?

I think your talking to the same guy i referenced on the GDR website.
Form!?!?!? hmm no, besides not getting a form I didnt even get a lousy tshirt.
However mine broke while racing and everyone knws theres no warranty when racing.

My rods had a little discoloration, had them reconditioned and their still going strong.

I get he feeling your .010 turned crank was a stocker so i can see why your changing it out.

if it was a bryant or some other billet brand i would get it cut to match sbc diameter and heat treat it. and then you can use sbc rods.

fwiw i am now using 10552c pump. It uses a bolt on pickup tube that we welded a milodon screen assembly to. Guess you realize since the pickup came off your pump it was going to fail anyway. If you want to use a press on tube again, look thru jeggs catalog, they have a bolt together thing that grips around the tube and uses the oil pump cover screws to hold it in place. Ive seen welding to the cast iron pump lid fail also so at least check out the jeggs item.

ed

 

[epix]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

I think your talking to the same guy i referenced on the GDR website.
Form!?!?!? hmm no, besides not getting a form I didnt even get a lousy tshirt.
However mine broke while racing and everyone knws theres no warranty when racing.

My rods had a little discoloration, had them reconditioned and their still going strong.

I get he feeling your .010 turned crank was a stocker so i can see why your changing it out.

if it was a bryant or some other billet brand i would get it cut to match sbc diameter and heat treat it. and then you can use sbc rods.

fwiw i am now using 10552c pump. It uses a bolt on pickup tube that we welded a milodon screen assembly to. Guess you realize since the pickup came off your pump it was going to fail anyway. If you want to use a press on tube again, look thru jeggs catalog, they have a bolt together thing that grips around the tube and uses the oil pump cover screws to hold it in place. Ive seen welding to the cast iron pump lid fail also so at least check out the jeggs item.

ed

sent you a PM ed..

ya the crank was stock.. tried to build the engine on a medium budget so of course a billet crank was not an option. UR50SLO is ordering me a M-Select pump tomorrow and he is gonna make a bracket to make sure the pickup stays on no matter what. and right now since I've alrready dumped so much $$$ into this I'd just feel safer getting some new H-Beams.. would hate to have something happen again..

 

[4C FED]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

fwiw i am now using 10552c pump. It uses a bolt on pickup tube that we welded a milodon screen assembly to. Guess you realize since the pickup came off your pump it was going to fail anyway. If you want to use a press on tube again, look thru jeggs catalog, they have a bolt together thing that grips around the tube and uses the oil pump cover screws to hold it in place. Ive seen welding to the cast iron pump lid fail also so at least check out the jeggs item.

ed

Melling recommends brazing the pickup to the cover. All the way around.
Someone I know tack welded my last pickup on & when I removed the pan last time the welds had cracked. No tack welds this time, I went all the way around.

 

[UR50SLO]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

Never braze a pickup on with out taking the entire pump apart. It'll heat stretch the spring and cause some issues.

What I end up doing is making a bracket that welds to the pickup (once i set pick up depth) and then bolts to the actual pump housing bolts. It can't come off and in the process there is NO heat put to the pump,spring or housing.

The rods might be able to be saved as they never "spun" but they are very discolored and myself and Shaker don't trust that for what little cost new Eagle rods are.

The crank was bent .10 and would need to be turned past .20. NO Way.
Pete.. look for a good used crank
Sucks when a simple part causes all this greif! Arrrg.
~Scott~

 

[sytyguy]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

The rods might be able to be saved as they never "spun" but they are very discolored and myself and Shaker don't trust that for what little cost new Eagle rods are.
~Scott~

Be aware that Eagle CRS rods are currently on national backorder. No telling if/when production will resume. I know Waller and I bought 2 of the last sets in circulation and while mine are sold, he still has his set for sale, IIRC. Might get with him and put dibs on 'em before it's too late.

Hood

 

[blk00z28]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

Never braze a pickup on with out taking the entire pump apart. It'll heat stretch the spring and cause some issues.

What I end up doing is making a bracket that welds to the pickup (once i set pick up depth) and then bolts to the actual pump housing bolts. It can't come off and in the process there is NO heat put to the pump,spring or housing..
~Scott~

If and when you do happen to do this. Can you post pic's as some people might like to do this in the future as cheap insurance

 

[UR50SLO]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

No problem.... I should have things rolling back together in the next 2wks. I'd like to get it back in the truck this fall still so it can be put away and taking out in the spring for tuning.

I'll post that picture!
Scott~

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

OK - sorry for being dumb but I have read Ed's thread about the initial problem, and I have followed this. Hope this isn't a threadjack BUT...

I am doing a rebuild (see sig) and want to upgrade the oil system. RPM is providing a lot of my stuff including the oil pump. Their part number is M55a.

I asked Mike and he said they have not had a problem, but can someone else confirm that for me. Not flaming Mike, just need a second voice seeing as this build is around $6000 right now.

Anyone?

Thanks,

mark

 

[ed hess]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

may i suggest you call melling, ask for tech support and ask them.

it is possible that mike has some old stock melling m55a with the thicker castings still left on hand or perhaps he isnt aware of the design changes.

ed

 

[sy#2921]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

In light of this thread I ordered the 10550 pump from summit last week. When it arrived it looked a lot thicker of a casting however I was worried when it still had m55hv stamped into it. But after looking at it and the new m55hv that is in the truck I soon saw that the 10550 was the better one of the two

 

[Sy Guy 0024]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

In light of this thread I ordered the 10550 pump from summit last week. When it arrived it looked a lot thicker of a casting however I was worried when it still had m55hv stamped into it. But after looking at it and the new m55hv that is in the truck I soon saw that the 10550 was the better one of the two

What pickup are you using? Or did the pump come with one?

 

[sy#2921]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

I ordered another mel-210s. It is the same as what I already brazed onto the old weak style pump. The m-select pump comes with a hardened driveshaft but I am going to use the arp that I already bought. Later today or tomorrow I am going to see if I can swap the base of the oil pumps since I already have the pickup brazed on and the height set perfect. This would be a nice shortcut to know about especially for people that already have the new weak version and want to swap quickly.

 

[Sy Guy 0024]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

Good, that's the one I just ordered from summit. Picked up a new 10550 as well. I had ordered one of the M55As from RPM, told Mike I was uncomfy using it. He took it back no questions asked.

Thanks for the info.

 

[ghettosled]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

Since many people have asked me to respond here is my take on it:

We do not recommend the use of a high volume pump which the "M Select" pumps are, however if you feel more comfortable with the high volume vs. the standard thinner castings of the M55a we have been either upgrading people (still need to pay the difference) or refunding their money.

I have yet to see any of the M55a castings break, and i have also called around to several of my buddies with local machine shops to get their take on it.. Combined this number of motors using the standard melling pumps are in the thousands since the casting change. We will continue to use the M55a pumps on our rebuilds, as we feel the need for increased pressure is more important then a 25% increase in volume (which without additional oil capacity can empty the pan and starve the motor for oil as well).

I personally think the tire shake vibration thing is a load of BS. We run the standard melling pumps on many of our 2000+ hp 10.5/drag radial cars and trust me... the tire shake is ALOT more violent then any AWD syclone /typhoon. Still havent seen a casting break.

So with that being said, we are aware of the casting changes, and the known problems few have encountered. Maybe once we expirience a failure, we will change our minds but until then we will likely go with what has been working fine for us. Yes, the casting is about .250" thinner then the old, but it is still almost 1" thick.. A 1" thick piece of cast iron should *theoretically" be quite strong unless it has been tampered with. If you are having someone other then us build your motor, i would 100% go with their recommendation since they are the ones who will or should stand behind their engine.. If you bring a handful of parts and have them install it, any potential problems may be blamed on the customer b/c it was not supplied by the builder and/or they did not specifically recommend it.

Hope that may clear a few things up... For those expecting Melling to take responsibility on the engine failures, i wouldnt hold your breath... Blaming it on solid engine mounts is a far stretch but it appears to be working

 

[James Thomas]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

Hey Mike (and everyone else), no offense but we have suffered two cracked castings on different types of builds (both street builds btw) and no solid mounts. Both failed in the same place and in the same way at that, don't know why or the cause but a severly broken pump casting is still a busted pump. Last time I talked to George at Melling the count of defective pumps was getting ugly..... as in over 100 confirmed and that was a year ago. I'm thinking better safe than sorry but to each his own. Just passing the info so folks can make an informed decision and not get hammered for a whole engine is all.

__________
James

 

[ghettosled]

Re: Pulled engine today and found... (pics)

has anyone converted a HV select pump into high pressure only?

The pumps that are cracking are the pickups fully welded? Has anyone cracked a 55A or just the 55HV?

If the pickups are welded what rod are they using?

if it is not possible to turn a select pump into a high pressure, then i think by adding a pickup support to the standard M55A would be fine...The custom pickups we do for the sheetmetal pans have these welded on.